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I dislike the way mac makes almost all shortcuts start with the apple key. Granted windows has a few, they are mostly OS specific, like windows-e to open explo

I dislike the way mac makes almost all shortcuts start with the apple key. Granted windows has a few, they are mostly OS specific, like windows-e to open explorer. on OSX even something as standard as ctrl-c / ctrl-v uses the cmd key. I have much less difficulty switching between windows and ubuntu than to mac when it comes to shortcuts.

lewisflude 6y ago
I feel quite the opposite! The fact that so many shortcuts involve the CMD key makes them easier to remember and use. I can understand the frustration moving between systems, but I think whichever one feels "right" is largely due to where you spend most of your time.
gempir 6y ago
Also most Linux/Windows shortcuts feel way more natural than on macOS For a new tab in chrome Ctlr + T is easily done on Linux/Windows. On macOS for Cmd + T you need to weirdly bend your thumb under your hand while also hitting T somehow. Or you need to move your entire hand 2 columns of keyboard layout to the right to be able to hit cmd with your pinky.
- diegof79 6y ago
  I think that “feels natural” is not the right adjective to describe that it breaks your habits. With Apple keyboards the Cmd key is easy to access, I only had that problem using Windows keyboards. The Win key is not used much so some manufacturers make it smaller. I use Macs since 2007 and it “feels natural” to me, but this is because I’m used to Apple keyboards. For me the Ctrl key feels far away, and hitting Cmd plus key comes as the first reflex.
  - projektfu 6y ago
    My favorite “feels natural” thing on Apple keyboards was putting raised dots on D and K, on the Keyboard II and Extended Keyboard II. This goes under the middle finger, just like on the numeric keypad. Eventually they relented and put the dots under F and J like the rest of the PCs.
    - macintux 6y ago
      Apple also, along with Sun, used to put the control key in the correct location. They finally caved and put caps lock there. PCs have a lot of crimes to answer for.
      - projektfu 6y ago
        The Apple IIplus Keyboard looked a lot like the ADM3a keyboard on the left side. Also in the placement of symbols.
      - cesarb 6y ago
        Putting the Caps Lock key above the Shift key came from typewriters, where it was a "Shift Lock" key (it physically locked the Shift key below it in the pressed position). If you have to blame something, blame typewriters.
  - kps 6y ago
    Jef Raskin's 1994 article Intuitive equals familiar remains worth reading.
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  Spy from another planet with no opposable thumbs detected.
- fabianmg 6y ago
  In this forum you're going to get very very downvoted with anything that goes against Apple. Let's see. Unix - Ctrl + c Linux - Ctrl + c Win - Ctrl + c Mac - Option + c Clearly the standard and natural way is the Apple way of doing things...
  - sbuk 6y ago
    Got nothing to do with it. Computing wasn't invented in 1990. Ctrl-c/v is a essentially a kludge introduced into Windows because the IBM Model M keyboard and similar didn't have a Meta key. It wasn't until Windows 3.1 that we see Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V being a 'thing'. Before then it was all about IBMs CUA. Apple had CMD-C/V/X on the Lisa 9 years before. I'm not sure what Xerox did on the Alto or if it even used keyboard shortcuts, but they did refer to the operation as Copy/Paste (coined by Larry Tesla who went on to work at Apple).
  - bobthedino 6y ago
    But on Unix and Linux pressing Ctrl-C in a terminal will send SIGINT (unless special measures are taken by your terminal emulator). I think this another benefit of the Mac using Command-C for copy: when the UNIX-based Mac OS X was introduced you could copy from termainl windows without accidentally stopping the running program!
  - kps 6y ago
    > Unix - Ctrl + c Which Unix would that be? The closest thing to a common Unix desktop environment, the Common Desktop Environment, didn't steal Control because they had enough sense to know that people needed it to type control characters. > Linux - Ctrl + c The Linux desktop crowd has always been obsessed with cloning Windows.
  - danaris 6y ago
    Option-c types a ç character; the Mac doesn't (by default) use Option alone as a shortcut modifier key. You're thinking of Command.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Keyboards have modifier keys on both sides because you would have to stretch or move your fingers out of position to type most combinations with one hand. The Command keys on Mac keyboards are wider and closer to the center than the Alt or Windows keys on PC keyboards.
- harshitaneja 6y ago
  I felt the same when I initially shifted to macOS but even though I don't like a lot about macOS, this has grown on me. Cmd key is more centrally located on the keyboard and requires less flex in your hand to reach.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    I was a late switcher, only after 20ish years of Windows, Linux, and a little BeOS. I now wish everyone else would just copy apple’s layout exactly for their default English keyboard & system shortcuts. It’s way, way better. Let dwm users and such remap if they like, of course, but that should be the default. It’s so good it’s fair, so long as no one else has copied it (why not!?) to call it a feature, and one providing significant “stickiness” for their platform (ditto Preview—sometimes, it’s the little things that matter, if they’re done exceptionally well)
- jbc1 6y ago
  Cmd T is super comfortable. What do you mean somehow? The T is right there next to F, the default resting area for your index finger. Ctrl is the uncomfortable key. Requires bringing the pinky in to play.
- robertoandred 6y ago
  What? The Command key is instantly and reliably accessible with your thumb. The Control key is what's super awkward.
swebs 6y ago
I actually prefer the Mac way since I often find myself accidentally killing terminal programs when trying to copy something. The fact that Ctrl-C is context dependent makes it a big pain usability wise.
simion314 6y ago
Maybe you could remap the keys and swap Cmd and Ctrl, I remap the keys around on my Linux machine to have them more ergonomically pressed, for example I don't use Alt as much so I make left Alt a Ctrl btn, I never use the Meta btn so I make that one an Alt btn.
flohofwoe 6y ago
That's entirely subjective though, after I worked a while on Mac, copy/pasting via Ctrl feels weird for a few minutes (and vice versa). macOS has a handy setting though where you can reassign the modifier keys which helps to ease the pain when switching between platforms often: System Preferences => Keyboard, on the Keyboard tab click the "Modifier Keys..." button in the bottom right corner.
- sukilot 6y ago
  That doesn't really help because it just swaps the keys; it doesn't remap the shortcuts, so most shortcuts are still wrong which ruins flow.
bobthedino 6y ago
Hard to see Apple changing this, since the Mac has been using the Command key for shortcuts since 1984. You could even argue that the "standard" you mention of using the Control key actually came along after the Mac!
- fabianmg 6y ago
  I seriously doubt it... https://unicheck.com/blog/who-invented-copy-and-paste https://unicheck.com/blog/who-invented-copy-and-paste "The person most widely credited with Copy and Paste, Larry Tesler, did work for Apple starting in 1980. However, he created the command while working for Xerox Palo Alto Research Center at some point between 1973-1976 " So, the Ctrl + c was BEFORE the Apple way.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    The Xerox Star had a Copy key.[1] IBM used Ctrl+Insert in the 1987 CUA standard.[2] [1] http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/keyboard/index.html http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/keyboard/index.h... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access
  - projektfu 6y ago
    ‘In Gypsy, the user could select the source text, press the "Copy" function key, select the destination text or insertion point, and press the "Paste" function key.’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_(software) Before the Mac, all the computers I remember used function keys or their own various commands. Even after, IBM published “Common User Access” using ctrl-insert and shift-insert. Apple, as far as I know, introduced the familiar ZXCV shortcuts.
  - bobthedino 6y ago
    Further to other comments, looking here it seems that C, X, V for Copy, Cut, Paste were first used by Apple in the Lisa in 1983 and then later adopted by Microsoft for Windows: "The IBM Common User Access (CUA) standard also uses combinations of the Insert, Del, Shift and Control keys. Early versions of Windows used the IBM standard. Microsoft later also adopted the Apple key combinations with the introduction of Windows, using the control key as modifier key. For users migrating to Windows from MS-DOS this was a big change as MS-DOS users used the "copy" and "move" commands." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste#Popularization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste#Populariz...
Stratoscope 6y ago
I hear you on switching between Windows/Ubuntu vs. Mac. Especially with Cinnamon which I used at an Alphabet company, the shortcuts were pretty much the same as Windows. On the Mac, the preference for the Command key is stated explicitly in the human interface guidelines: • Prefer the Command key as the main modifier key in a keyboard shortcut. • Prefer the Shift key as a secondary modifier when a shortcut complements another shortcut. • Use the Option key as a modifier sparingly. • As much as possible, avoid using the Control key as a modifier. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/user-interaction/keyboard/ https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... We may like or dislike this, but Apple's preference is pretty clear.
kps 6y ago
> … something as standard as ctrl-c / ctrl-v In the standard I rely on continually, ctrl-c and ctrl-v are control characters.
robertoandred 6y ago
Command is much easier to use than Control. It's right there next to your thumb.

lewisflude 6y ago

I feel quite the opposite! The fact that so many shortcuts involve the CMD key makes them easier to remember and use. I can understand the frustration moving between systems, but I think whichever one feels "right" is largely due to where you spend most of your time.

gempir 6y ago

Also most Linux/Windows shortcuts feel way more natural than on macOS For a new tab in chrome Ctlr + T is easily done on Linux/Windows. On macOS for Cmd + T you need to weirdly bend your thumb under your hand while also hitting T somehow. Or you need to move your entire hand 2 columns of keyboard layout to the right to be able to hit cmd with your pinky.

diegof79 6y ago
I think that “feels natural” is not the right adjective to describe that it breaks your habits. With Apple keyboards the Cmd key is easy to access, I only had that problem using Windows keyboards. The Win key is not used much so some manufacturers make it smaller. I use Macs since 2007 and it “feels natural” to me, but this is because I’m used to Apple keyboards. For me the Ctrl key feels far away, and hitting Cmd plus key comes as the first reflex.
- projektfu 6y ago
  My favorite “feels natural” thing on Apple keyboards was putting raised dots on D and K, on the Keyboard II and Extended Keyboard II. This goes under the middle finger, just like on the numeric keypad. Eventually they relented and put the dots under F and J like the rest of the PCs.
  - macintux 6y ago
    Apple also, along with Sun, used to put the control key in the correct location. They finally caved and put caps lock there. PCs have a lot of crimes to answer for.
    - projektfu 6y ago
      The Apple IIplus Keyboard looked a lot like the ADM3a keyboard on the left side. Also in the placement of symbols.
    - cesarb 6y ago
      Putting the Caps Lock key above the Shift key came from typewriters, where it was a "Shift Lock" key (it physically locked the Shift key below it in the pressed position). If you have to blame something, blame typewriters.
- kps 6y ago
  Jef Raskin's 1994 article Intuitive equals familiar remains worth reading.
Hackbraten 6y ago
Spy from another planet with no opposable thumbs detected.
fabianmg 6y ago
In this forum you're going to get very very downvoted with anything that goes against Apple. Let's see. Unix - Ctrl + c Linux - Ctrl + c Win - Ctrl + c Mac - Option + c Clearly the standard and natural way is the Apple way of doing things...
- sbuk 6y ago
  Got nothing to do with it. Computing wasn't invented in 1990. Ctrl-c/v is a essentially a kludge introduced into Windows because the IBM Model M keyboard and similar didn't have a Meta key. It wasn't until Windows 3.1 that we see Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V being a 'thing'. Before then it was all about IBMs CUA. Apple had CMD-C/V/X on the Lisa 9 years before. I'm not sure what Xerox did on the Alto or if it even used keyboard shortcuts, but they did refer to the operation as Copy/Paste (coined by Larry Tesla who went on to work at Apple).
- bobthedino 6y ago
  But on Unix and Linux pressing Ctrl-C in a terminal will send SIGINT (unless special measures are taken by your terminal emulator). I think this another benefit of the Mac using Command-C for copy: when the UNIX-based Mac OS X was introduced you could copy from termainl windows without accidentally stopping the running program!
- kps 6y ago
  > Unix - Ctrl + c Which Unix would that be? The closest thing to a common Unix desktop environment, the Common Desktop Environment, didn't steal Control because they had enough sense to know that people needed it to type control characters. > Linux - Ctrl + c The Linux desktop crowd has always been obsessed with cloning Windows.
- danaris 6y ago
  Option-c types a ç character; the Mac doesn't (by default) use Option alone as a shortcut modifier key. You're thinking of Command.
pseudalopex 6y ago
Keyboards have modifier keys on both sides because you would have to stretch or move your fingers out of position to type most combinations with one hand. The Command keys on Mac keyboards are wider and closer to the center than the Alt or Windows keys on PC keyboards.
harshitaneja 6y ago
I felt the same when I initially shifted to macOS but even though I don't like a lot about macOS, this has grown on me. Cmd key is more centrally located on the keyboard and requires less flex in your hand to reach.
- spanhandler 6y ago
  I was a late switcher, only after 20ish years of Windows, Linux, and a little BeOS. I now wish everyone else would just copy apple’s layout exactly for their default English keyboard & system shortcuts. It’s way, way better. Let dwm users and such remap if they like, of course, but that should be the default. It’s so good it’s fair, so long as no one else has copied it (why not!?) to call it a feature, and one providing significant “stickiness” for their platform (ditto Preview—sometimes, it’s the little things that matter, if they’re done exceptionally well)
jbc1 6y ago
Cmd T is super comfortable. What do you mean somehow? The T is right there next to F, the default resting area for your index finger. Ctrl is the uncomfortable key. Requires bringing the pinky in to play.
robertoandred 6y ago
What? The Command key is instantly and reliably accessible with your thumb. The Control key is what's super awkward.

swebs 6y ago

I actually prefer the Mac way since I often find myself accidentally killing terminal programs when trying to copy something. The fact that Ctrl-C is context dependent makes it a big pain usability wise.

simion314 6y ago

Maybe you could remap the keys and swap Cmd and Ctrl, I remap the keys around on my Linux machine to have them more ergonomically pressed, for example I don't use Alt as much so I make left Alt a Ctrl btn, I never use the Meta btn so I make that one an Alt btn.

flohofwoe 6y ago

That's entirely subjective though, after I worked a while on Mac, copy/pasting via Ctrl feels weird for a few minutes (and vice versa). macOS has a handy setting though where you can reassign the modifier keys which helps to ease the pain when switching between platforms often: System Preferences => Keyboard, on the Keyboard tab click the "Modifier Keys..." button in the bottom right corner.

sukilot 6y ago
That doesn't really help because it just swaps the keys; it doesn't remap the shortcuts, so most shortcuts are still wrong which ruins flow.

bobthedino 6y ago

Hard to see Apple changing this, since the Mac has been using the Command key for shortcuts since 1984. You could even argue that the "standard" you mention of using the Control key actually came along after the Mac!

fabianmg 6y ago
I seriously doubt it... https://unicheck.com/blog/who-invented-copy-and-paste https://unicheck.com/blog/who-invented-copy-and-paste "The person most widely credited with Copy and Paste, Larry Tesler, did work for Apple starting in 1980. However, he created the command while working for Xerox Palo Alto Research Center at some point between 1973-1976 " So, the Ctrl + c was BEFORE the Apple way.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  The Xerox Star had a Copy key.[1] IBM used Ctrl+Insert in the 1987 CUA standard.[2] [1] http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/keyboard/index.html http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/keyboard/index.h... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access
- projektfu 6y ago
  ‘In Gypsy, the user could select the source text, press the "Copy" function key, select the destination text or insertion point, and press the "Paste" function key.’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_(software) Before the Mac, all the computers I remember used function keys or their own various commands. Even after, IBM published “Common User Access” using ctrl-insert and shift-insert. Apple, as far as I know, introduced the familiar ZXCV shortcuts.
- bobthedino 6y ago
  Further to other comments, looking here it seems that C, X, V for Copy, Cut, Paste were first used by Apple in the Lisa in 1983 and then later adopted by Microsoft for Windows: "The IBM Common User Access (CUA) standard also uses combinations of the Insert, Del, Shift and Control keys. Early versions of Windows used the IBM standard. Microsoft later also adopted the Apple key combinations with the introduction of Windows, using the control key as modifier key. For users migrating to Windows from MS-DOS this was a big change as MS-DOS users used the "copy" and "move" commands." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste#Popularization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste#Populariz...

Stratoscope 6y ago

I hear you on switching between Windows/Ubuntu vs. Mac. Especially with Cinnamon which I used at an Alphabet company, the shortcuts were pretty much the same as Windows. On the Mac, the preference for the Command key is stated explicitly in the human interface guidelines: • Prefer the Command key as the main modifier key in a keyboard shortcut. • Prefer the Shift key as a secondary modifier when a shortcut complements another shortcut. • Use the Option key as a modifier sparingly. • As much as possible, avoid using the Control key as a modifier. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/user-interaction/keyboard/ https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... We may like or dislike this, but Apple's preference is pretty clear.

kps 6y ago

> … something as standard as ctrl-c / ctrl-v In the standard I rely on continually, ctrl-c and ctrl-v are control characters.

robertoandred 6y ago

Command is much easier to use than Control. It's right there next to your thumb.