8 ms·

Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pitch (2013)

53 points by dr_dshiv 6y ago

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> Absolute pitch, the ability to identify or produce the pitch of a sound without a reference point, has a critical period, i.e., it can only be acquired early in life. From an evolutionary perspective, what could possibly be the reason for this?
- brutusborn 6y ago
  Diversion of neural resources to tasks encountered more frequently perhaps? I.e. children that develop in a culture where pitch isn't important end up pruning the neurons for absolute pitch after a critical period.
- klodolph 6y ago
  Infants can distinguish nearly any sound in any language, but not all sounds are important. They lose the ability to distinguish sounds that they don't need to distinguish. The experiment to figure this out is pretty interesting. A native English speaker has no problem distinguishing /θ/ as in "this" from /s/ as in "sis", but not very many languages need you to make this distinction, so people who learn English later in life have a very hard time with it. Likewise, English speakers can't tell the difference between long and short vowels, or long and short consonants. That's because there are no long and short vowels or consonants in English--the distinction doesn't matter. But you'd have a hard time learning Finnish or Japanese without it. And then there are the weird cases, like how in English we have rules for aspirating and voicing /t/ and /k/. If you speak Mandarin then you might pick out /t/ as if it were /d/, but only in certain positions. So "stop" might sound like "sdop", but "top" sounds like "top".
  - robocat 6y ago
    > That's because there are no long and short vowels or consonants in English--the distinction doesn't matter. English has the distinction for vowels and it does matter. “can’t” and “cunt” have the same vowel sound in some accents, but “can’t” needs a long vowel sound while “cunt” needs a short vowel sound. Native English speakers speak those those two words quite distinctly. Lose/loose is another pair (confusingly “lose“ has a long vowel sound and “loose” has a short vowel sound.) Moon needs a long vowel sound to sound right. I am sure you can think of other examples.
    - klodolph 6y ago
      You're right, that in some dialects it is different. But to most English dialects, "can't" and "cunt" have completely different vowels, and the length isn't distinguished. "Lose" and "loose" are also distinguished by the voicing, "lose" ends with /z/ and "loose" ends with /s/. Maybe not all dialects.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- darksaints 6y ago
  Why do you assume there is an evolutionary basis for this? Evolutionary perspectives might be helpful for understanding broad genetic characteristics of entire populations. But it isn't even clear if absolute pitch is heritable, let alone anything more than a random variation with null survivability benefits.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    Absolute pitch is heritable in the sense that nearly everyone is born with it. The theories I've heard are that we are born with absolute pitch and develop relative pitch later on, losing absolute pitch at around eight months old. We also develop the ability to associate octaves, so C and C' start sounding "alike" at some point, but this happens because we are exposed to music which treats them as equal. I find it hard to believe that it would have "null survivability benefits"--it seems pretty useful for distinguishing the sounds of different animals.
    - hprotagonist 6y ago
      not all traits have to be beneficial to persist.
      - klodolph 6y ago
        We agree on that point... what are you trying to argue?
        hprotagonist 6y ago
        n-GP wrote: > From an evolutionary perspective, what could possibly be the reason for this? and my point is “there need not be one at all, perhaps absolute pitch is a spandrel.”
        klodolph 6y ago
        I guess I don’t understand why you’re responding to my comment, then.
- acd 6y ago
  Maybe the brain would be similar to machine learning “learning rate” parameter. If the learning rate was high it might lead to “overfit”? Overfit is not good for learning.
powersnail 6y ago
I read the paper and have doubts on the assessment of absolute pitch. > Participants heard one synthesized piano tone per trial, for a total of 18 trials, in a semi-randomized order, the only constraint being that successive tones were separated by an interval greater than one octave. The tones were 500 ms in duration and interleaved by 3750 ms of silence, and were identical to the stimuli used during training Only the first stimuli is a test of absolute pitch. Afterwards, relative pitch can easily help. There is no measure (that I could see) that prevents the subjects from simply memorizing the feeling of hearing a tune because they had just gone through heavy training. For instance, I don't have absolute pitch. But because I tune a violin daily, I can remember what A4 sound like, and deduce what other notes sound like based on that. People with absolute pitch doesn't have to do that. In addition, testing with 12 notes is way too easy. So, I would say "Valproate" improves the effect of ear-training, instead of saying the subjects really developed AP.
- darksaints 6y ago
  Wouldn't that only hold true if they knew the answer to the first pitch they heard? If that is held back, perfect relative pitch still would not be of help.
  - powersnail 6y ago
    Yes. Relative pitch will not definitely help the subject. However, it will still affect the test result, as it is involuntary to think about the relative pitch. Therefore, the test still was not purely testing absolute pitch.
    - vageli 6y ago
      > Yes. Relative pitch will not definitely help the subject. However, it will still affect the test result, as it is involuntary to think about the relative pitch. Therefore, the test still was not purely testing absolute pitch. How might a test be designed to take that into account?
      - 6y ago
jdc 6y ago
Doesn't look like they had enough test subjects to suggest anything other than another direction for future research.
NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
Can this help learning languages, recognising/memorising sounds? Would it be helpful with the accent, as babies till young age create frequency statistic of sounds and that is the reason why it sounds so strange when we speaking non native language?
jimhefferon 6y ago
What is known about adult aquisition of relative pitch? (Asking ... for a friend.)
- dzdt 6y ago
  From the article: " there are no known cases of an adult successfully acquiring it (Brady, 1970; Ward and Burns, 1999; Levitin and Rogers, 2005). " Edit: Oh, sorry, that was for perfect pitch. You asked for relative pitch, which was I guess a joke? Or maybe it was a question of can someone learn to accurately identify musical intervals who does not have perfect pitch?
  - labelbias 6y ago
    I'm also interested in this. How hard would it be to remember 440Hz and then just go up in your head, searching with octaves and then going up and down when close?
  - jimhefferon 6y ago
    I have an ear-training app (Perfect Ear) and I practice 10-15 mins per day. What is known about what works, and what doesn't?
elric 6y ago
If you've never encountered anyone with absolute pitch, the experience is much like colour vision. When (non colour-blind) people look at something, they can immediately say "green", "red", "purple", whatever. There is no lag whatsoever. Same with people with absolute pitch. Play a note, and they can tell you its name without lag.
- cma 6y ago
  How is it related to colorblindness? For most types of colorblindness relative comparisons are affected too. And for non colorblind people, all kinds of context in an image can change perception of color, similar to relative pitch (blue/black white/gold dress anyone?).
bionhoward 6y ago
Wow, if epigenetic drugs could reactivate the critical period, it could be huge for language learning, why isn’t this popular knowledge? If it’s from 2013, are there follow up studies which refute this? This would make VPA a major nootropic
- reify_null 6y ago
  VPA does have some side-effects, possibly depending on the person, which might conflict with it being used as a nootropic. For me it reduces ability to concentrate and makes moods less intense. The latter is expected behavior for BP treatment, but not what most people would like to trade for, what I would call, marginal benefits in comparison. There's a whole range of other side effects, some of which are pretty bad.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Valproate must not be used by pregnant women, and women of child-bearing age need to be made aware of the severe risks. On top of that, long term therapeutic use is linked to PCOS and potentially infertility in women. https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-publishes-a-summary-of-its-guidance-and-other-safety-advice-on-valproate https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-publishes-a-summar... https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg137/resources/valproate-in-children-young-people-and-adults-summary-of-nice-guidance-and-safety-advice-pdf-6723784045 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg137/resources/valproate-i... https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/sodium-valproate.html https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/sodium-valproate.html > MHRA/CHM advice: Valproate medicines: contraindicated in women and girls of childbearing potential unless conditions of Pregnancy Prevention Programme are met (April 2018) > Valproate is highly teratogenic and evidence supports that use in pregnancy leads to neurodevelopmental disorders (approx. 30–40% risk) and congenital malformations (approx. 10% risk). > Valproate must not be used in women and girls of childbearing potential unless the conditions of the Pregnancy Prevention Programme are met (see Conception and contraception) and only if other treatments are ineffective or not tolerated, as judged by an experienced specialist. > Use of valproate in pregnancy is contra-indicated for migraine prophylaxis [unlicensed] and bipolar disorder; it must only be considered for epilepsy if there is no suitable alternative treatment (see Pregnancy). > Women and girls (and their carers) must be fully informed of the risks and the need to avoid exposure to valproate medicines in pregnancy; supporting materials have been provided to use in the implementation of the Pregnancy Prevention Programme (see Prescribing and dispensing Information). The MHRA advises that: > GPs must recall all women and girls who may be of childbearing potential, provide the Patient Guide, check they have been reviewed by a specialist in the last year and are on highly effective contraception; > Specialists must book in review appointments at least annually with women and girls under the Pregnancy Prevention Programme, re-evaluate treatment as necessary, explain clearly the conditions as outlined in the supporting materials and complete and sign the Risk Acknowledgement Form—copies of the form must be given to the patient or carer and sent to their GP; > Pharmacists must ensure valproate medicines are dispensed in whole packs whenever possible—all packs dispensed to women and girls of childbearing potential should have a warning label either on the carton or via a sticker. They must also discuss risks in pregnancy with female patients each time valproate medicines are dispensed, ensure they have the Patient Guide and have seen their GP or specialist to discuss their treatment and the need for contraception.
Hoasi 6y ago
> Absolute pitch, the ability to identify or produce the pitch of a sound without a reference point, has a critical period, i.e., it can only be acquired early in life. It is also said to wane with age. If it is true, there you'd have a cure.
sirwitti 6y ago
> ...it can only be acquired early in life. As a musicologist, musician and someone who acquired some level of absolute pitch at ~14 years, I have to disagree. Anecdata: Musicians distinguish between acquired and given/natural absolute pitch and additionally between active and passive AP. Naming a note and producing/singing one are very different skills. In my personal experience absolute pitch is a spectrum of several skills. For example: - I can reliably name (single) notes played on a piano or similar instruments - Most times I cannot name the root note of complex chords - I cannot reliably name notes played by wind instruments - If I can sing a note in my lowest register I can name most notes reliably Just for completeness: Musically speaking, absolute pitch is not a particularly useful skill and can be very limiting/painful for people.

53 points by dr_dshiv 6y ago

> Absolute pitch, the ability to identify or produce the pitch of a sound without a reference point, has a critical period, i.e., it can only be acquired early in life. From an evolutionary perspective, what could possibly be the reason for this?

brutusborn 6y ago
Diversion of neural resources to tasks encountered more frequently perhaps? I.e. children that develop in a culture where pitch isn't important end up pruning the neurons for absolute pitch after a critical period.
klodolph 6y ago
Infants can distinguish nearly any sound in any language, but not all sounds are important. They lose the ability to distinguish sounds that they don't need to distinguish. The experiment to figure this out is pretty interesting. A native English speaker has no problem distinguishing /θ/ as in "this" from /s/ as in "sis", but not very many languages need you to make this distinction, so people who learn English later in life have a very hard time with it. Likewise, English speakers can't tell the difference between long and short vowels, or long and short consonants. That's because there are no long and short vowels or consonants in English--the distinction doesn't matter. But you'd have a hard time learning Finnish or Japanese without it. And then there are the weird cases, like how in English we have rules for aspirating and voicing /t/ and /k/. If you speak Mandarin then you might pick out /t/ as if it were /d/, but only in certain positions. So "stop" might sound like "sdop", but "top" sounds like "top".
- robocat 6y ago
  > That's because there are no long and short vowels or consonants in English--the distinction doesn't matter. English has the distinction for vowels and it does matter. “can’t” and “cunt” have the same vowel sound in some accents, but “can’t” needs a long vowel sound while “cunt” needs a short vowel sound. Native English speakers speak those those two words quite distinctly. Lose/loose is another pair (confusingly “lose“ has a long vowel sound and “loose” has a short vowel sound.) Moon needs a long vowel sound to sound right. I am sure you can think of other examples.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    You're right, that in some dialects it is different. But to most English dialects, "can't" and "cunt" have completely different vowels, and the length isn't distinguished. "Lose" and "loose" are also distinguished by the voicing, "lose" ends with /z/ and "loose" ends with /s/. Maybe not all dialects.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
darksaints 6y ago
Why do you assume there is an evolutionary basis for this? Evolutionary perspectives might be helpful for understanding broad genetic characteristics of entire populations. But it isn't even clear if absolute pitch is heritable, let alone anything more than a random variation with null survivability benefits.
- klodolph 6y ago
  Absolute pitch is heritable in the sense that nearly everyone is born with it. The theories I've heard are that we are born with absolute pitch and develop relative pitch later on, losing absolute pitch at around eight months old. We also develop the ability to associate octaves, so C and C' start sounding "alike" at some point, but this happens because we are exposed to music which treats them as equal. I find it hard to believe that it would have "null survivability benefits"--it seems pretty useful for distinguishing the sounds of different animals.
  - hprotagonist 6y ago
    not all traits have to be beneficial to persist.
    - klodolph 6y ago
      We agree on that point... what are you trying to argue?
      - hprotagonist 6y ago
        n-GP wrote: > From an evolutionary perspective, what could possibly be the reason for this? and my point is “there need not be one at all, perhaps absolute pitch is a spandrel.”
        klodolph 6y ago
        I guess I don’t understand why you’re responding to my comment, then.
acd 6y ago
Maybe the brain would be similar to machine learning “learning rate” parameter. If the learning rate was high it might lead to “overfit”? Overfit is not good for learning.

powersnail 6y ago

I read the paper and have doubts on the assessment of absolute pitch. > Participants heard one synthesized piano tone per trial, for a total of 18 trials, in a semi-randomized order, the only constraint being that successive tones were separated by an interval greater than one octave. The tones were 500 ms in duration and interleaved by 3750 ms of silence, and were identical to the stimuli used during training Only the first stimuli is a test of absolute pitch. Afterwards, relative pitch can easily help. There is no measure (that I could see) that prevents the subjects from simply memorizing the feeling of hearing a tune because they had just gone through heavy training. For instance, I don't have absolute pitch. But because I tune a violin daily, I can remember what A4 sound like, and deduce what other notes sound like based on that. People with absolute pitch doesn't have to do that. In addition, testing with 12 notes is way too easy. So, I would say "Valproate" improves the effect of ear-training, instead of saying the subjects really developed AP.

darksaints 6y ago
Wouldn't that only hold true if they knew the answer to the first pitch they heard? If that is held back, perfect relative pitch still would not be of help.
- powersnail 6y ago
  Yes. Relative pitch will not definitely help the subject. However, it will still affect the test result, as it is involuntary to think about the relative pitch. Therefore, the test still was not purely testing absolute pitch.
  - vageli 6y ago
    > Yes. Relative pitch will not definitely help the subject. However, it will still affect the test result, as it is involuntary to think about the relative pitch. Therefore, the test still was not purely testing absolute pitch. How might a test be designed to take that into account?
    - 6y ago

jdc 6y ago

Doesn't look like they had enough test subjects to suggest anything other than another direction for future research.

NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago

Can this help learning languages, recognising/memorising sounds? Would it be helpful with the accent, as babies till young age create frequency statistic of sounds and that is the reason why it sounds so strange when we speaking non native language?

jimhefferon 6y ago

What is known about adult aquisition of relative pitch? (Asking ... for a friend.)

dzdt 6y ago
From the article: " there are no known cases of an adult successfully acquiring it (Brady, 1970; Ward and Burns, 1999; Levitin and Rogers, 2005). " Edit: Oh, sorry, that was for perfect pitch. You asked for relative pitch, which was I guess a joke? Or maybe it was a question of can someone learn to accurately identify musical intervals who does not have perfect pitch?
- labelbias 6y ago
  I'm also interested in this. How hard would it be to remember 440Hz and then just go up in your head, searching with octaves and then going up and down when close?
- jimhefferon 6y ago
  I have an ear-training app (Perfect Ear) and I practice 10-15 mins per day. What is known about what works, and what doesn't?

elric 6y ago

If you've never encountered anyone with absolute pitch, the experience is much like colour vision. When (non colour-blind) people look at something, they can immediately say "green", "red", "purple", whatever. There is no lag whatsoever. Same with people with absolute pitch. Play a note, and they can tell you its name without lag.

cma 6y ago
How is it related to colorblindness? For most types of colorblindness relative comparisons are affected too. And for non colorblind people, all kinds of context in an image can change perception of color, similar to relative pitch (blue/black white/gold dress anyone?).

bionhoward 6y ago

Wow, if epigenetic drugs could reactivate the critical period, it could be huge for language learning, why isn’t this popular knowledge? If it’s from 2013, are there follow up studies which refute this? This would make VPA a major nootropic

reify_null 6y ago
VPA does have some side-effects, possibly depending on the person, which might conflict with it being used as a nootropic. For me it reduces ability to concentrate and makes moods less intense. The latter is expected behavior for BP treatment, but not what most people would like to trade for, what I would call, marginal benefits in comparison. There's a whole range of other side effects, some of which are pretty bad.
DanBC 6y ago
Valproate must not be used by pregnant women, and women of child-bearing age need to be made aware of the severe risks. On top of that, long term therapeutic use is linked to PCOS and potentially infertility in women. https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-publishes-a-summary-of-its-guidance-and-other-safety-advice-on-valproate https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-publishes-a-summar... https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg137/resources/valproate-in-children-young-people-and-adults-summary-of-nice-guidance-and-safety-advice-pdf-6723784045 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg137/resources/valproate-i... https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/sodium-valproate.html https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/sodium-valproate.html > MHRA/CHM advice: Valproate medicines: contraindicated in women and girls of childbearing potential unless conditions of Pregnancy Prevention Programme are met (April 2018) > Valproate is highly teratogenic and evidence supports that use in pregnancy leads to neurodevelopmental disorders (approx. 30–40% risk) and congenital malformations (approx. 10% risk). > Valproate must not be used in women and girls of childbearing potential unless the conditions of the Pregnancy Prevention Programme are met (see Conception and contraception) and only if other treatments are ineffective or not tolerated, as judged by an experienced specialist. > Use of valproate in pregnancy is contra-indicated for migraine prophylaxis [unlicensed] and bipolar disorder; it must only be considered for epilepsy if there is no suitable alternative treatment (see Pregnancy). > Women and girls (and their carers) must be fully informed of the risks and the need to avoid exposure to valproate medicines in pregnancy; supporting materials have been provided to use in the implementation of the Pregnancy Prevention Programme (see Prescribing and dispensing Information). The MHRA advises that: > GPs must recall all women and girls who may be of childbearing potential, provide the Patient Guide, check they have been reviewed by a specialist in the last year and are on highly effective contraception; > Specialists must book in review appointments at least annually with women and girls under the Pregnancy Prevention Programme, re-evaluate treatment as necessary, explain clearly the conditions as outlined in the supporting materials and complete and sign the Risk Acknowledgement Form—copies of the form must be given to the patient or carer and sent to their GP; > Pharmacists must ensure valproate medicines are dispensed in whole packs whenever possible—all packs dispensed to women and girls of childbearing potential should have a warning label either on the carton or via a sticker. They must also discuss risks in pregnancy with female patients each time valproate medicines are dispensed, ensure they have the Patient Guide and have seen their GP or specialist to discuss their treatment and the need for contraception.

Hoasi 6y ago

> Absolute pitch, the ability to identify or produce the pitch of a sound without a reference point, has a critical period, i.e., it can only be acquired early in life. It is also said to wane with age. If it is true, there you'd have a cure.

sirwitti 6y ago

> ...it can only be acquired early in life. As a musicologist, musician and someone who acquired some level of absolute pitch at ~14 years, I have to disagree. Anecdata: Musicians distinguish between acquired and given/natural absolute pitch and additionally between active and passive AP. Naming a note and producing/singing one are very different skills. In my personal experience absolute pitch is a spectrum of several skills. For example: - I can reliably name (single) notes played on a piano or similar instruments - Most times I cannot name the root note of complex chords - I cannot reliably name notes played by wind instruments - If I can sing a note in my lowest register I can name most notes reliably Just for completeness: Musically speaking, absolute pitch is not a particularly useful skill and can be very limiting/painful for people.