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This plays right into China's narrative. Now the arrest of Meng Wanzhou (Huawei CTO) starts to look a bit less principled and a bit more like a piece of realpol

This plays right into China's narrative. Now the arrest of Meng Wanzhou (Huawei CTO) starts to look a bit less principled and a bit more like a piece of realpolitik. I think it's definitely justified in the sense that it's understandable to strike back, but it's hard to take a moral high ground now.

mlindner 6y ago
But only China believes China's narrative... Just ask any of China's neighbors. Philippines is reversing course of late even though they were trying to get closer to China, for example.
- logicchains 6y ago
  I'm in Singapore and most of my colleagues here view the US as the bad guy in all this.
- chillacy 6y ago
  Out of curiosity I dug up some of the research, at least as of 6 months ago (haven't found anything more recent) it's fair to say that overall APAC leans towards "unfavorable" in its attitude towards China. Favorability is down double digits from 2018 in APAC (though strangely up double digits in parts of europe). So "only china believes china's narrative" isn't super technically correct but I think the general sentiment is accurate. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/attitudes-toward-china-2019/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/attitudes-towa...
bananaface 6y ago
The arrest of Meng Wanzhou was never meant to seem legitimate imo, the point was power projection. "Don't fuck with us." I don't think the moral high ground means much in geopolitics. Power is way more important. "Better not curtail us, it'll make you seem mean..." This is the US we're talking about, known around the world for turning half the middle east into a desert. That's really not their primary concern.
- EdTsft 6y ago
  That sounds like an excellent way for the US to torpedo their relationship with Canada, as if the trade war and COVID response isn't doing enough already. Canada's stance on the arrest is based on its legitimacy and the impartiality of the judiciary. The public will be outraged if it comes out that we've had to suffer China's wrath for a political stunt by the US.
  - bananaface 6y ago
    You're putting a lot of weight on positive relations rather than power. I'm just not convinced. The US is substantially more powerful than Canada, so they can bully Canada. Canada doesn't really have the option to turn them down as an ally. For example, I don't think the trade war did damage relations with Canada - if what you're measuring is tangible results, rather than sentiment. From what I can tell, the US basically said, "give us a better deal, now. Also we're boycotting China." Canada said "I don't want to. But OK," and then... Nothing else changed. The US won, and Canada didn't reprimand them. Results > sentiment. Forcing Canada to choose between the US and China is absolutely a strategic option for the US, and possibly an important move to make given how heavily China is invested in Canadian property. America doesn't want China getting a foothold on their continent. Even if it pissed off the Canadian public... So what? What are the practical results? Note the US is currently embroiled in similar situations with Britain (Assange & the Hit & Run Diplomat). They practically forced the UK to join the war in Iraq, which pissed the UK public off way more than Weng Menzhou - doesn't matter. They won, & the UK is still a (staunch) ally.
loceng 6y ago
Of course it plays into their narrative, it's easy to spin practically anything - that doesn't mean you worry about that and don't act; their control-censorship systems means they can make sure their society adopts their false narratives as well, and punish anyone who questions them (or the CCP). And the CCP of course isn't going to share the truthful narrative regarding their concentration camps with million+ Uighurs, their genocide, and how after the COVID-19 pandemic we've woken up and became more aware of CCP's tyrannical behaviour; their coverup attempt allowing the virus to spread (whether it was malicious, purposeful or not we don't know) has killed, and harmed many people and economies globally. Saying that finally taking a stand against things like corporate theft or fraud or not following international law is non-sense - and I fail to see it is hard to maintain the moral high ground now when the CCP has concentration camps, accusations with credibility of torture and genocidal behaviour?

mlindner 6y ago

But only China believes China's narrative... Just ask any of China's neighbors. Philippines is reversing course of late even though they were trying to get closer to China, for example.

logicchains 6y ago
I'm in Singapore and most of my colleagues here view the US as the bad guy in all this.
chillacy 6y ago
Out of curiosity I dug up some of the research, at least as of 6 months ago (haven't found anything more recent) it's fair to say that overall APAC leans towards "unfavorable" in its attitude towards China. Favorability is down double digits from 2018 in APAC (though strangely up double digits in parts of europe). So "only china believes china's narrative" isn't super technically correct but I think the general sentiment is accurate. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/attitudes-toward-china-2019/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/attitudes-towa...

bananaface 6y ago

The arrest of Meng Wanzhou was never meant to seem legitimate imo, the point was power projection. "Don't fuck with us." I don't think the moral high ground means much in geopolitics. Power is way more important. "Better not curtail us, it'll make you seem mean..." This is the US we're talking about, known around the world for turning half the middle east into a desert. That's really not their primary concern.

EdTsft 6y ago
That sounds like an excellent way for the US to torpedo their relationship with Canada, as if the trade war and COVID response isn't doing enough already. Canada's stance on the arrest is based on its legitimacy and the impartiality of the judiciary. The public will be outraged if it comes out that we've had to suffer China's wrath for a political stunt by the US.
- bananaface 6y ago
  You're putting a lot of weight on positive relations rather than power. I'm just not convinced. The US is substantially more powerful than Canada, so they can bully Canada. Canada doesn't really have the option to turn them down as an ally. For example, I don't think the trade war did damage relations with Canada - if what you're measuring is tangible results, rather than sentiment. From what I can tell, the US basically said, "give us a better deal, now. Also we're boycotting China." Canada said "I don't want to. But OK," and then... Nothing else changed. The US won, and Canada didn't reprimand them. Results > sentiment. Forcing Canada to choose between the US and China is absolutely a strategic option for the US, and possibly an important move to make given how heavily China is invested in Canadian property. America doesn't want China getting a foothold on their continent. Even if it pissed off the Canadian public... So what? What are the practical results? Note the US is currently embroiled in similar situations with Britain (Assange & the Hit & Run Diplomat). They practically forced the UK to join the war in Iraq, which pissed the UK public off way more than Weng Menzhou - doesn't matter. They won, & the UK is still a (staunch) ally.

loceng 6y ago

Of course it plays into their narrative, it's easy to spin practically anything - that doesn't mean you worry about that and don't act; their control-censorship systems means they can make sure their society adopts their false narratives as well, and punish anyone who questions them (or the CCP). And the CCP of course isn't going to share the truthful narrative regarding their concentration camps with million+ Uighurs, their genocide, and how after the COVID-19 pandemic we've woken up and became more aware of CCP's tyrannical behaviour; their coverup attempt allowing the virus to spread (whether it was malicious, purposeful or not we don't know) has killed, and harmed many people and economies globally. Saying that finally taking a stand against things like corporate theft or fraud or not following international law is non-sense - and I fail to see it is hard to maintain the moral high ground now when the CCP has concentration camps, accusations with credibility of torture and genocidal behaviour?