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I think it's hard to bring this study to bear on the critical period hypothesis in toto since its scope is narrow in both time and grammatical breadth (just sou

I think it's hard to bring this study to bear on the critical period hypothesis in toto since its scope is narrow in both time and grammatical breadth (just sound production, and no other parts of comprehension or production), so we should maybe leave that aside. You're right that the critical period hypothesis is still not settled, but let's go back to your proposal, that anyone who's immersed and motivated enough will be able to acquire nativelike proficiency. While we're in the realm of anecdotes (since you make reference to your own experience), I witnessed several peers of mine in a months-long language immersion program fall behind others in the program by quite a margin, with (IMO) little hope of nativelike proficiency even with months more of intensive classes, despite apparent motivation (sometimes much more than the better performers) and 24/7 immersion in the target language. Going beyond anecdotes now, let's consider results from the literature against the assumption that if only adults could not be so easily discouraged they would be able to attain more nativelike proficiency. In that case, we'd expect at least a few places in time and space to have second language learners who do a phenomenal job of acquiring the target language, yet as far as I know that's never been found in the literature. Birdsong[0] reports that the range of attested rates of nativelike proficiency in L2 learners is between 5% and 25%. Moreover, there's a wealth of literature that documents in detail the specific ways in which language acquisition mechanisms falter beginning around age 6[1], which is in line with the suggestion that nativelike proficiency becomes progressively harder with age. Neither of these results pushes your suggestion beyond plausibility, of course, but it does seem to me like the preponderance of evidence is on one side. If you know of any studies with findings that support the idea that motivation can be a decisive factor in acquiring nativelike proficiency in a second language I'd be really interested to see them. [0]: https://web.stanford.edu/~hakuta/www/research/publications/(1999)%20-%20CONFOUNDED%20AGE%20LINGUISTIC%20AND%20COGNITIVE%20FACTORS%20IN%20.pdf https://web.stanford.edu/~hakuta/www/research/publications/(... [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/44488300.pdf?casa_token=YS2OKj08pwUAAAAA:2lw0ukUSquDhgXDK1nwsNKgpr8iKG3wYlGc4Noj-JuTEx8asUfPrsGA1aitlrALTGaplVv7Uvh2xACytBdIf48CTqvb7pqlmnPBp6ELe3kdHzQdCTlc https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/44488300.pdf?casa_token=YS2...

recuter 6y ago
> In that case, we'd expect at least a few places in time and space to have second language learners who do a phenomenal job of acquiring the target language, yet as far as I know that's never been found in the literature. Respectfully, your literature is gobbledygook. :) If the preponderance of evidence is on one side perhaps the academic researches need to get out more and collect better evidence. I suggest as a start going to touristy places in developing countries (SEA, Peru, 'etc) where the guides are economically incentivised to speak half a dozen languages. I've encountered this sort of person over and over. They simply had to learn, as adults, and so they did. Bet you'd learn French too if you worked for tips and your kid was hungry tout de suite! And as for literature, try cracking a few books open from previous centuries that involved extensive travel for the author.
- bynormous 6y ago
  I was intrigued in your experience as a polygot and was buying your arguments until I read your suggestion to listen to guides then that completely reversed it because almost all the many many guides I've had are definitely not fluent in their non-native language in the same way children gain fluency. Most have broken language in the same way older immigrants have broken language despite the fact that are forced to navigate in their adopted language full-time.
  - recuter 6y ago
    Have to start your search somewhere. Watch out for an older distinguished-looking gentleman giving proper tours, not the fellows that accost you at the exit of the bus/train station with a few simple sentences. If I was a researcher with no travel budget I'd try cross referencing a list of medium-small touristy towns (like Cusco) with decades that had upticks in tourism and a very bad local economy. Narrow it down to above-average income college grads and start asking them if they are or know of a polyglot. Can probably get pretty far with nothing but Facebook. Just a guess, maybe I'm wrong about this pattern. Let me know what you find out. ;) Edit: I was also intrigued by your comment until I read "in the same way older immigrants have broken language" - this is indeed the common but rather narrow experience. I don't think I'll be able to convince you of anything. Best assume you are corresponding with the Loch ness monster.

recuter 6y ago

> In that case, we'd expect at least a few places in time and space to have second language learners who do a phenomenal job of acquiring the target language, yet as far as I know that's never been found in the literature. Respectfully, your literature is gobbledygook. :) If the preponderance of evidence is on one side perhaps the academic researches need to get out more and collect better evidence. I suggest as a start going to touristy places in developing countries (SEA, Peru, 'etc) where the guides are economically incentivised to speak half a dozen languages. I've encountered this sort of person over and over. They simply had to learn, as adults, and so they did. Bet you'd learn French too if you worked for tips and your kid was hungry tout de suite! And as for literature, try cracking a few books open from previous centuries that involved extensive travel for the author.

bynormous 6y ago
I was intrigued in your experience as a polygot and was buying your arguments until I read your suggestion to listen to guides then that completely reversed it because almost all the many many guides I've had are definitely not fluent in their non-native language in the same way children gain fluency. Most have broken language in the same way older immigrants have broken language despite the fact that are forced to navigate in their adopted language full-time.
- recuter 6y ago
  Have to start your search somewhere. Watch out for an older distinguished-looking gentleman giving proper tours, not the fellows that accost you at the exit of the bus/train station with a few simple sentences. If I was a researcher with no travel budget I'd try cross referencing a list of medium-small touristy towns (like Cusco) with decades that had upticks in tourism and a very bad local economy. Narrow it down to above-average income college grads and start asking them if they are or know of a polyglot. Can probably get pretty far with nothing but Facebook. Just a guess, maybe I'm wrong about this pattern. Let me know what you find out. ;) Edit: I was also intrigued by your comment until I read "in the same way older immigrants have broken language" - this is indeed the common but rather narrow experience. I don't think I'll be able to convince you of anything. Best assume you are corresponding with the Loch ness monster.