3 ms·

I take it he's thrilled his daughter is dating an American - son of an Allied veteran, no less? Sorry if I'm prying, I'm just fascinated by living history.

yequalsx 16y ago
No, he doesn't seem to mind me. He does have his prejudices with regard to America. (The amis is the derogatory German term.) Two months ago I had lunch with him, another former Wehrmacht soldier and three women from that generation. The other guy was extremely rude. He said many derogatory things about Americans and American prisoner of war camp guards (my dad was such a guard after the war). I don't speak German and didn't know about this until after the dinner when my girlfriend interpreted for me. I was pissed at her for not letting me know what he said until after he left. She didn't want a scene to be caused. No one in the group said anything to the man or to correct him or to say that he was full of shit. They all kept cheerfully engaged in conversation. What's amazing to me is that the great crime of that generation was silence. Few spoke out against racist talk. Few stood up against foolish rantings. Sixty years later here was a group of Germans from that generation still afraid to speak up. Still afraid of causing a scene (and my girlfriend too!). It was absolutely shocking. I was really pissed because my dad had died a few weeks earlier and it was hard to hear this stuff from the likes of these people. No Wehrmacht soldier has the right to call another uncivilized and he did call Americans uncivilized. The whole thing caused me to reflect a lot. It's something I'll never forget. My girlfriend's generation suffers from what I call "the German guilt thing". Her father's generation doesn't seem to have ever come to grips with what they did. This is all anecdotal of course. But in my dealings with other Germans it's clear to me that Germans on a whole do think they are better (or their way of life is better) than anyone else. They won't say this anymore but deep down there appears to be an "uber alles" bent. Other people have different experiences and come to different conclusions than me. This is all just my opinion. I guess the crux of what I'm saying is that it is easy to feel superior and such arrogance isn't limited to Americans. There are lots of examples in the history of the world of such thinking. It's bad whenever it occurs and the worst form of it is to ignore it in your culture while condemning it in other cultures.
- rdouble 16y ago
  You might have a thin skin. Old soldiers (and old people in general) say outrageous things all the time. My grandpa is also a ww2 vet and busts out new offensive material every time I visit. Even the hyper educated oldsters do it. 8 years ago I went to a lecture by James Watson and he spent the whole 45 minutes making racist jokes about Asian people... Whatever you do, don't ever visit Australia.
  - yequalsx 16y ago
    Your last sentence seems to imply that I do have a thin skin. It's possible. It's also possible that the generation of Germans that brought us Auschwitz is a disconcerting one to me and justifiably so. Would you have lunch with Rudolf Hoss and be pleasant to him? What about a guard there? Perhaps the discomfort in me has to do with the fact that so many Germans committed atrocities and my conclusion is that I am no better. That is, in the same situation I would have done the same thing. I could have a thin skin. By the way, my experience with men who saw combat - real combat - don't talk about it. The will tell a few anecdotes but nothing to do with combat. The ones who talk about their war experiences usually aren't the ones who actually did any fighting.
- grammaton 16y ago
  Thank you. I knew there was something interesting to learn from the story as soon as you mentioned it, and here it is. Thank you for sharing.
  - yequalsx 16y ago
    You're welcome!

yequalsx 16y ago

No, he doesn't seem to mind me. He does have his prejudices with regard to America. (The amis is the derogatory German term.) Two months ago I had lunch with him, another former Wehrmacht soldier and three women from that generation. The other guy was extremely rude. He said many derogatory things about Americans and American prisoner of war camp guards (my dad was such a guard after the war). I don't speak German and didn't know about this until after the dinner when my girlfriend interpreted for me. I was pissed at her for not letting me know what he said until after he left. She didn't want a scene to be caused. No one in the group said anything to the man or to correct him or to say that he was full of shit. They all kept cheerfully engaged in conversation. What's amazing to me is that the great crime of that generation was silence. Few spoke out against racist talk. Few stood up against foolish rantings. Sixty years later here was a group of Germans from that generation still afraid to speak up. Still afraid of causing a scene (and my girlfriend too!). It was absolutely shocking. I was really pissed because my dad had died a few weeks earlier and it was hard to hear this stuff from the likes of these people. No Wehrmacht soldier has the right to call another uncivilized and he did call Americans uncivilized. The whole thing caused me to reflect a lot. It's something I'll never forget. My girlfriend's generation suffers from what I call "the German guilt thing". Her father's generation doesn't seem to have ever come to grips with what they did. This is all anecdotal of course. But in my dealings with other Germans it's clear to me that Germans on a whole do think they are better (or their way of life is better) than anyone else. They won't say this anymore but deep down there appears to be an "uber alles" bent. Other people have different experiences and come to different conclusions than me. This is all just my opinion. I guess the crux of what I'm saying is that it is easy to feel superior and such arrogance isn't limited to Americans. There are lots of examples in the history of the world of such thinking. It's bad whenever it occurs and the worst form of it is to ignore it in your culture while condemning it in other cultures.

rdouble 16y ago
You might have a thin skin. Old soldiers (and old people in general) say outrageous things all the time. My grandpa is also a ww2 vet and busts out new offensive material every time I visit. Even the hyper educated oldsters do it. 8 years ago I went to a lecture by James Watson and he spent the whole 45 minutes making racist jokes about Asian people... Whatever you do, don't ever visit Australia.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  Your last sentence seems to imply that I do have a thin skin. It's possible. It's also possible that the generation of Germans that brought us Auschwitz is a disconcerting one to me and justifiably so. Would you have lunch with Rudolf Hoss and be pleasant to him? What about a guard there? Perhaps the discomfort in me has to do with the fact that so many Germans committed atrocities and my conclusion is that I am no better. That is, in the same situation I would have done the same thing. I could have a thin skin. By the way, my experience with men who saw combat - real combat - don't talk about it. The will tell a few anecdotes but nothing to do with combat. The ones who talk about their war experiences usually aren't the ones who actually did any fighting.
grammaton 16y ago
Thank you. I knew there was something interesting to learn from the story as soon as you mentioned it, and here it is. Thank you for sharing.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  You're welcome!