5 ms·

You can't just go out and start an ISP. That's like saying I can go out and start my own bank or make my own payment processor.

by lykr0n 6y ago

failrate 6y ago
It is difficult to start your own ISP or payment processor, but it is possible.
borski 6y ago
I agree with your sentiment (that you shouldn't have to), but you actually can do these things. People have started banks and payment processors, and competed successfully with the bigger ones; Stripe is a great example, as is Simple. https://startyourownisp.com https://startyourownisp.com
- RangerScience 6y ago
  AFAIK Simple is not a bank, it's a (better) UI/UX wrapper around "bank", and they've changed the underlying provider at least once since I've been using them.
  - borski 6y ago
    Fair, but nevertheless: https://www.americanbanker.com/list/new-banks-this-year https://www.americanbanker.com/list/new-banks-this-year
betterunix2 6y ago
"You can't just go out and start an ISP." Actually it is not that difficult in a densely populated area using modern wireless networking technologies. NYC Mesh is the example that immediately comes to my mind -- they have installed repeaters on dozens of rooftops and have plenty of peering relationships (though AFAIK they do not provide transit because they are only connected to a single IXP). I also know someone who worked for a wireless ISP in a rural area, though they ultimately went bankrupt probably because of the higher cost per customer in sparsely populated regions (probably the reason rural areas are invariably stuck with a local monopoly that provides terrible service at a high price). Of course, providing competitive service is a different story, and is far more capital intensive...
- msla 6y ago
  > NYC Mesh is the example that immediately comes to my mind -- they have installed repeaters on dozens of rooftops and have plenty of peering relationships (though AFAIK they do not provide transit because they are only connected to a single IXP). ... which is why people say it's impossible to start an ISP. Building the local part is relatively easy, but, one, how many backhaul networks serve your region, and, two, how many of them are willing to provide service to an entity robbing them of their rightful monopoly on selling overpriced triple-play contracts to everyone in the state?
  - betterunix2 6y ago
    Well, sure, and like I said that rural WISP wound up failing because building and maintaining their wireless backhaul was too expensive for the number of customers they served (and they definitely did not have the budget to build a wired backhaul). In a dense area like NYC, where you can get line of sight to a building that houses an IXP, it is definitely easier to do. As for ISPs selling service, it is not all that hard to get a contract. ISPs like Hurricane Electric will sell service to anyone who can be colocated with one of their POPs, and they are pretty widely distributed (they do not provide residential service and would have no reason to refuse to sell service to a residential ISP). Verizon and AT&T also have wholesale contracts that in theory a smaller ISP could use, and I doubt they would begrudge an ISP that is competing with them in some local market (especially since a small ISP will almost certainly not be able to provide a triple-play package or any form bundling at all, so the big players will always have the upper hand). "Enterprise" transit services can also be used, if you can afford the prices ISPs demand for those contracts (or more precisely, if you can effectively pass the cost on to your residential users). You may have to build out a backhaul to some large building where you can get a fiber connection, but that is not an insurmountable barrier to entry.

You can't just go out and start an ISP. That's like saying I can go out and start my own bank or make my own payment processor.

by lykr0n 6y ago

You can't just go out and start an ISP. That's like saying I can go out and start my own bank or make my own payment processor.

failrate 6y ago

It is difficult to start your own ISP or payment processor, but it is possible.

borski 6y ago

I agree with your sentiment (that you shouldn't have to), but you actually can do these things. People have started banks and payment processors, and competed successfully with the bigger ones; Stripe is a great example, as is Simple. https://startyourownisp.com https://startyourownisp.com

RangerScience 6y ago
AFAIK Simple is not a bank, it's a (better) UI/UX wrapper around "bank", and they've changed the underlying provider at least once since I've been using them.
- borski 6y ago
  Fair, but nevertheless: https://www.americanbanker.com/list/new-banks-this-year https://www.americanbanker.com/list/new-banks-this-year

betterunix2 6y ago

"You can't just go out and start an ISP." Actually it is not that difficult in a densely populated area using modern wireless networking technologies. NYC Mesh is the example that immediately comes to my mind -- they have installed repeaters on dozens of rooftops and have plenty of peering relationships (though AFAIK they do not provide transit because they are only connected to a single IXP). I also know someone who worked for a wireless ISP in a rural area, though they ultimately went bankrupt probably because of the higher cost per customer in sparsely populated regions (probably the reason rural areas are invariably stuck with a local monopoly that provides terrible service at a high price). Of course, providing competitive service is a different story, and is far more capital intensive...

msla 6y ago
> NYC Mesh is the example that immediately comes to my mind -- they have installed repeaters on dozens of rooftops and have plenty of peering relationships (though AFAIK they do not provide transit because they are only connected to a single IXP). ... which is why people say it's impossible to start an ISP. Building the local part is relatively easy, but, one, how many backhaul networks serve your region, and, two, how many of them are willing to provide service to an entity robbing them of their rightful monopoly on selling overpriced triple-play contracts to everyone in the state?
- betterunix2 6y ago
  Well, sure, and like I said that rural WISP wound up failing because building and maintaining their wireless backhaul was too expensive for the number of customers they served (and they definitely did not have the budget to build a wired backhaul). In a dense area like NYC, where you can get line of sight to a building that houses an IXP, it is definitely easier to do. As for ISPs selling service, it is not all that hard to get a contract. ISPs like Hurricane Electric will sell service to anyone who can be colocated with one of their POPs, and they are pretty widely distributed (they do not provide residential service and would have no reason to refuse to sell service to a residential ISP). Verizon and AT&T also have wholesale contracts that in theory a smaller ISP could use, and I doubt they would begrudge an ISP that is competing with them in some local market (especially since a small ISP will almost certainly not be able to provide a triple-play package or any form bundling at all, so the big players will always have the upper hand). "Enterprise" transit services can also be used, if you can afford the prices ISPs demand for those contracts (or more precisely, if you can effectively pass the cost on to your residential users). You may have to build out a backhaul to some large building where you can get a fiber connection, but that is not an insurmountable barrier to entry.