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The best thing we can do on a personal level is to stop using broadleaf weedkillers like Scott's Weed and Feed and other herbicides like glyphosate (Roundup).
by zackmorris 6y ago
The best thing we can do on a personal level is to stop using broadleaf weedkillers like Scott's Weed and Feed and other herbicides like glyphosate (Roundup).
I've been doing handyman work at my boss's house during COVID-19 and he has clover growing in his yard. He has a fair number of bees, certainly more than on my end of town which is all chemlawns.
It's arguably ok to use a little weed killer by hand on dandelions if you must (better to spray 2-3 courses of vinegar instead). But killing all clover, morning glories, and other broadleaf flowers in lawns has led to the near-extinction of bees in residential areas. Herbicides and pesticides in agriculture wiped out the rest.
Edit: fixed the first sentence to distinguish between broadleaf herbicides and glyphosate (which kills everything).
- duxup 6y ago>But killing all clover, morning glories, and other broadleaf flowers in lawns has led to the near-extinction of bees in residential areas. Herbicides and pesticides in agriculture wiped out the rest. Is that the case for sure? I thought the state of the bee population wasn't quite that well understood... I have no doubt that various herbicides hurt, but I'm not sure that just that science means their current population is entirely due to such use.
- zackmorris 6y agoThere are numerous studies, but since bee populations declined so drastically in the last 20 years, it's looking like the increase in glyphosate for GMO crops is one of the main culprits, or at least strongly correlated with the deaths: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/25/651618685/study-roundup-weed-killer-could-be-linked-to-widespread-bee-deaths https://www.npr.org/2018/09/25/651618685/study-roundup-weed-... Admittedly, my sample size is only 1 as far as clover. I'd recommend anyone reading this to go to a clover honey farm near where you live, to see for yourself. Part of the problem is that so many of us live in cities now that we have no personal experience about the issue, which leaves us more vulnerable to misinformation/propaganda from big agribusiness corporations, their lobbyists and the politicians beholden to them.
- bluntfang 6y agoany suggestions for a poison ivy patch? I'm doing the rounds of vinegar and placing tarps/boxes over the area, trying to avoid the nuclear option.
- azinman2 6y agoCan you not dig it up?
- duxup 6y agoThat's kind of a very very long repeated / endless process for poison ivy in my experience. Especially if it is in a less than easy access location.
- bluntfang 6y agoI think that's going to be part of my plan, but my housemate is extremely sensitive/allergic, so if I can avoid getting near the plant that would be awesome.
- hinkley 6y agoDo you have a way to get a lot of newspaper or large format cardboard? If the former, look up Morag Gamble, the latter, sheet mulching. Weed barriers will buy you a few years and then need to be dug up. Cardboard or paper biodegrade in a year (an extra thick layer of wood chips extends the effective period), so nothing to dig up and no microplastics. Weeds are opportunists. They tend to grow where other things don't want to. Better soil will invite other things in besides weeds.
- hanniabu 6y ago1) Trim what you can 2) Dig up what you can 3) See if you can find a syringe so that you can actually inject vinegar directly into whatever is left. Apply as close to the root as possible.
- adrianN 6y agoCut it back and suffocate it in mulch. Might take a while before the roots run out of power.
- tengbretson 6y agoWas reserving lawns for humans and all of the countryside for bees not already a pretty sweet deal? How are we being out-negotiated by insects?
- Johnjonjoan 6y agoThey hold (most) all the cards when it comes to food source sustainability. I'd even dare say our current negotiation position is over leveraged. Edit: they hold many other cards too - Food source sustainability was just the first to mind.
- ornornor 6y agoThat’s not really how it works.
- ljcn 6y agoWouldn't you rather share a garden with insects? I would.
- caturopath 6y agohttps://miro.medium.com/max/750/1*MzqQm_K3sdO8RFibufJJBA.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/750/1*MzqQm_K3sdO8RFibufJJBA.jpe...
- pantalaimon 6y agoThe countryside is mostly reserved for agriculture.
- upofadown 6y ago>... other broadleaf herbicides like glyphosate (Roundup). Glyphosate kills everything. If you use it as a broadleaf herbicide you are going to have a very bad week...
- zackmorris 6y agoAh thanks you're right, I updated my comment.
- GordonS 6y agoI never going the obsession with pristine lawns without clover, daisies, moss and such. I actually think it looks quite nice with some variation. My wife is militant about this, insisting that our lawn is sprayed with horrible chemicals at least once a year to kill off the clover, daisies and moss. Seems such a pointless thing to do, and very obviously not good for wildlife.
- mixmastamyk 6y agoWhy would someone insist on it? Seems like an odd thing to be focused on.
- GordonS 6y agoAppearances? Just because everyone else does it? Some people are just stuck in certain ways? I've never got a straight answer on this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- TedDoesntTalk 6y agoWhat is even worse are the people in deserts and desert-like areas who insist on Kentucky bluegrass and other non-native plants. The water waste is repulsive. My neighbors recently installed AstroTurf in their backyard because of this.
- spaceisballer 6y agoMy experiences are one part appearances and the other part moving to a new area. Where my wife and I grew up neither of our families did any regular fertilizer or anything just occasional weeding and lawns would be thick and green. Now we live in another part of the country and the soil is terrible. So it’s hard to have a lawn take hold, without constant irrigation. We live on a well so I’m not interested also that’s a pretty big waste of water. I don’t mind the clover we have but the crabgrass is out of control.
- faitswulff 6y agoClover also doesn’t get as tall as grass, which obviates the need for mowing the lawn. And the rabbits quite like it.
- rubber_duck 6y ago>has led to the near-extinction of bees in residential areas Why do you want bees in residential areas ? I think that it's illegal to keep bees in some proximity to residential areas around here (my grandparents used to keep bees).
- boudin 6y agoMost bees do not lives in hives and are solitary (they tend to live in bushes, walls, trees or in the ground). They don't even sting.
- yummypaint 6y agoA more accurate framing of the question would be "Should we wantonly destroy massive ecosystems covering vast fractions of available land area for the sake of socially constructed vanity?"
- rubber_duck 6y agoFraming the question indeed... I'm allergic to bee stings and I'd prefer not to have my neck swell up to the point where I can't breathe because I accidentally sat on or pinched an insect. And I don't want random insects biting me or my children, spreading disieses, etc. Residential areas are called that because they are built to accommodate humans, I don't see anything particularly problematic about not having bees there. And I do realise they pollinate a lot of plants - again residential area - I don't have anything against bees on farms or in nature.
- minerjoe 6y agoWhy do you want apples on your trees, or squash in your garden. Better to give that up than to have to risk being stung.
- kickout 6y agoAgreed. Ending the chemical era in modern agriculture will be big (and enabled by SV) https://thinkingagriculture.io/innovation-efficiency-chemicals-in-agriculture/ https://thinkingagriculture.io/innovation-efficiency-chemica...
- xyzzy_plugh 6y agoMy understanding is that these are not legal in most first world countries anymore -- I know they are banned in Canada and parts of Europe at least. It sounds like Germany is already on their way to banning glyphosate[0] 0: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/04/germany-ban-glyphosate-weedkiller-by-2023 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/04/germany-...
- pkaye 6y agoSo what is the recommended replacement for glyphosate?
- minerjoe 6y agoFor who? The home owner or big-ag? There is no replacement that doesn't entail more work, hense the massive resistance to change. Entitlement. Who cares about the bees if I have to change my behavior. For the home owner, you can use alternatives like vinegar, or even better, manual removal of dandilions, etc. Entire towns have gone spray-free, but that requires a team of dedicated people out there in the parks removing. For big-ag, they don't have a replacement. They are way too dependent. It's like asking what is the replacement for petrolium. A whole lot of pain and much extra work.
- pkaye 6y agoSo what are big-ag in Canada and Europe doing?
- contingencies 6y agoEU renewed it but may ban it in 2022. https://www.dw.com/en/eu-lawmakers-vote-to-ban-glyphosate-weed-killer-by-2022/a-41093018 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-lawmakers-vote-to-ban-glyphosate-we... US just renewed it. https://foodandwaterwatch.org/news/why-it-should-anger-all-us-trump-still-has-monsantos-back-roundup https://foodandwaterwatch.org/news/why-it-should-anger-all-u...
- throwaway9870 6y agoOld lawns (1950s) had clover by design. Even the lawn seed had clover seed already in it. Clover produces nitrogen which grass consumes, so it is a nice synergy. Clover eventually fell out of style because kids stepping on bees isn't desirable, and fertilizer and herbicides made an all grass lawn feasible.
- kickout 6y agoOther comment would be the agriculture use of chemicals dwarfs residential (and also land mass too). Need to figure out agriculture use of chemicals before we worry about residential use (although its easier to 'see' the results)
- saityi 6y agoMy backyard this year is an experiment in doing my best to encourage something that takes care of itself and is more supportive of local fauna. I laid down clover and what the local university's agriculture dept recommends for native-friendly grass seed. I've used no weed killer back there. I'm growing some ornamental grasses and flowers native to the area for decoration. I feel like it's been nice. I think the clover is pretty, and I feel like we have many more butterflies this year than any of the previous years. The grass has been thriving. Dandelions don't seem to enjoy growing with clover very much, so there's less of them this year, although goosefoots seem more than happy to coexist with clover. The clover has held up well to dogs, too, which has been a nice bonus. I think I'd like to add some creeping thyme next year.
- lostlogin 6y agoNice. We haven’t done as well as you with planting but took a different rack. A crowd near me was letting you rent beehives. They managed them and we got a lot of honey. This made a striking difference to trees and plants in our garden and our neighbours. I was cutting unripe fruit off trees to stop their branches snapping.
- wirrbel 6y agoI would say in Germany that balance is a little different. Herbicides and pesticides in lawns and gardens aren't so widely used as in the US (agriculture of course different story). At the same time, light pollution by streetlights is a lot worse because streetlights are in every street and overall the streets are more brightly lit. In the US its comparably fewer streetlights (and people often leave on their porch lights to light the street).
- baix777 6y agoClover is great for lawn health as it fixes (adds) nitrogen to the soil. Before the widespread use of herbicides having some clover in the lawn was viewed as a good thing because of this. Lawn seeds even included a bit of clover. When herbicides came out that killed clover as a side effect then we saw people saying (marketing) that clover is bad.
- ssully 6y agoI don't use any chemicals in my yard mainly because I don't want to expose my dogs to that stuff. The result is a yard similar to your boss's. When the clover flowers we get plenty of bees, and there are other tiny flying insects, which attracts birds. Never really gave much mind to birds, but it's really nice going out and seeing cardinals on a daily basis. We've even had multiple robin nests around the house, which is fun to see their hatching cycle.
- alexdumitru 6y agoI don't know why people hate clover. I'm planting clover along with grass, because it looks nice and helps the soil.
- cgs 6y agoI live in the high desert of central Oregon and finally got sick and tired of trying to maintain a lawn in the desert. I removed the lawn then planted a ton of zone 4/5 draught tolerant native plants, most of which flower. There are bees everywhere now. And drip irrigation so much less water used. Feels great!
- on_and_off 6y agomy parents have been avoiding using stuff like glyphosate for years. They would describe it better than I can, but they can get away with e.g. just having plants that are repulsive to aphids (and plants that attracts insects that eat them). They sometimes do have to use stuff like bordeaux mix but very rarely (if ever) use glyphosate. Their garden is pretty amazing as a result. There are tons of birds (they have bird feeders) and insects. Bats in the summer as well. Definitely how I see my garden if I ever get a house (I have been living in large cities all my adult life).
- zackmorris 6y agoI just want to add that I happened to stumble onto a clover lawn mix from Scotts, and it's even Amazon's Choice: https://www.amazon.com/Scotts-Turf-Builder-Clover-Lawn/dp/B07J5H12CH https://www.amazon.com/Scotts-Turf-Builder-Clover-Lawn/dp/B0... After seeing this, I realized it was perhaps a bit unfair to assign so much blame to one company, and even bought a bag.