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By this logic, everything is a direct consequence of what came before. Let’s just blame all of our problems on the Roman Empire. Even if that’s true on some sc

By this logic, everything is a direct consequence of what came before. Let’s just blame all of our problems on the Roman Empire. Even if that’s true on some scientific level, human institutions, human social practice, and the human mind itself, all rely on the idea of agency and responsibility. If you’re going to talk about whose “fault” it is, then you need to speak in those terms, not the mere chains of causation that science can talk about.

sharadov 6y ago
You obviously need an education on the Middle East, I suggest you read this book "From Beirut to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman, and watch the movie "Persepolis". The Roman Empire existed thousands of years back, the Iranian evolution happened in 78-79, and the after affects are still in play.
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  “You obviously need an education” :eyeroll: Pretty fresh coming from someone who “obviously” missed the entire point of my post. No one claims that present wasn’t caused by the past. The question is who bears moral responsibility today for a regime that Iranians placed in power, that Iranians (a large enough chunk at least) continue to support, etc. Iranians are not uniquely automatons. They own their regime at least as much as anyone else, especially at this point. That US actions set a chain of events in motion does not absolve Iranians of everything they decided to do since. You are confusing causation and fault/responsibility. The US interventions, the Shah’s personal decisions, the ayatollahs’ decisions, the rise of Islam, the Persian Empire, the first humans who left Africa, are all causes of the current situation. But to determine who is at fault, who is responsible, is a very different question. Proximity in time is only a vague heuristic. It’s common in every day parlance to mix these concepts up. Legal systems have been confused about the distinction for thousands of years. But the distinction is very important to speaking sensibly about things.
  - AndrewBissell 6y ago
    One thing to bear in mind in this discussion is that the U.S. did not simply exit stage left after the revolution in Iran. We've continued to isolate Iran both economically and militarily, especially with lavish support to Israel and even to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. It's impossible to say what kind of government Iran would have without American interventionism because it's never been free of American interventionism. It's sort of trivially true that responsibility for every facet of the Islamic Revolution in Iran can't be laid directly at the feet of the U.S. But, when you screw around with another country explicitly to steal their resources and exploit their people, it's silly to expect whatever violent resistance springs up to be rational and measured in every respect. They may even find it useful to heighten certain differences with the colonizing power to gain support from the people.
    - sharadov 6y ago
      Exactly my point. The US supported a despot like Saddam, ignored all the atrocities, propping up Israel.
    - anonunivgrad 6y ago
      Are you going to blame the the Nazi regime and the Holocaust on the WWI victors who refused to make a reasonable deal with a defeated Germany? It’s hard to imagine WW2 without the horrid WW1 peace terms. But we rightly lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Nazis and their supporters.
      - AndrewBissell 6y ago
        It is an extremely blinkered view of history to look at each event as a totally isolated occurrence of individual actors divorced from any wider social context or developments. There's more than just a little self-exculpation at work when the Western Allied powers -- who initially financed Hitler's war machine, hoped he'd be a useful tool against the Red Menace, and even served as a source of inspiration to his eugenicist ideology -- downplay and ignore their own role as a handmaiden to Nazism. Incidentally, in 1953 when the CIA carried out its coup in Iran it was basically run and controlled by people who had made a great deal of money financing the Nazi war effort and then imported a bunch of Nazi war criminals to work for Western intelligence and the space program.
082349872349872 6y ago
Part of Reza Shah's nationalism included viewing his dynasty as being the continuation of a monarchy first established by Cyrus[1], around AUC 200. The roman empire wouldn't be founded until AUC 727. In many parts of the world, 200 km is a long way. In the US, 200 years[2] is a long time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great [2] When I visited עיר דוד/وادي حلوه‎ one of the notable features was its easily defensible water supply. That's an area which has had over 6'000 years of history, with the architecture suggesting very little of it was peaceful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David
grugagag 6y ago
> By this logic, everything is a direct consequence of what came before. Let’s just blame all of our problems on the Roman Empire. As a nation we aren't learning any lesson from history, instead we're letting ourselves be manipulated by psychopathic politicians and regurgitate back what they program us with. What will happen in the future in that middle east region is also a consequence of the same us policy (nothing has really changed) the US continue to have in the area: hunger for oil at any cost whatsoever. Let's not blame the Romans for they don't exist anymore. The US exists and should have some accountability, at least to us the citizens. You're either blind or choose to not see, whichever you prefer.

sharadov 6y ago

You obviously need an education on the Middle East, I suggest you read this book "From Beirut to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman, and watch the movie "Persepolis". The Roman Empire existed thousands of years back, the Iranian evolution happened in 78-79, and the after affects are still in play.

anonunivgrad 6y ago
“You obviously need an education” :eyeroll: Pretty fresh coming from someone who “obviously” missed the entire point of my post. No one claims that present wasn’t caused by the past. The question is who bears moral responsibility today for a regime that Iranians placed in power, that Iranians (a large enough chunk at least) continue to support, etc. Iranians are not uniquely automatons. They own their regime at least as much as anyone else, especially at this point. That US actions set a chain of events in motion does not absolve Iranians of everything they decided to do since. You are confusing causation and fault/responsibility. The US interventions, the Shah’s personal decisions, the ayatollahs’ decisions, the rise of Islam, the Persian Empire, the first humans who left Africa, are all causes of the current situation. But to determine who is at fault, who is responsible, is a very different question. Proximity in time is only a vague heuristic. It’s common in every day parlance to mix these concepts up. Legal systems have been confused about the distinction for thousands of years. But the distinction is very important to speaking sensibly about things.
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  One thing to bear in mind in this discussion is that the U.S. did not simply exit stage left after the revolution in Iran. We've continued to isolate Iran both economically and militarily, especially with lavish support to Israel and even to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. It's impossible to say what kind of government Iran would have without American interventionism because it's never been free of American interventionism. It's sort of trivially true that responsibility for every facet of the Islamic Revolution in Iran can't be laid directly at the feet of the U.S. But, when you screw around with another country explicitly to steal their resources and exploit their people, it's silly to expect whatever violent resistance springs up to be rational and measured in every respect. They may even find it useful to heighten certain differences with the colonizing power to gain support from the people.
  - sharadov 6y ago
    Exactly my point. The US supported a despot like Saddam, ignored all the atrocities, propping up Israel.
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    Are you going to blame the the Nazi regime and the Holocaust on the WWI victors who refused to make a reasonable deal with a defeated Germany? It’s hard to imagine WW2 without the horrid WW1 peace terms. But we rightly lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Nazis and their supporters.
    - AndrewBissell 6y ago
      It is an extremely blinkered view of history to look at each event as a totally isolated occurrence of individual actors divorced from any wider social context or developments. There's more than just a little self-exculpation at work when the Western Allied powers -- who initially financed Hitler's war machine, hoped he'd be a useful tool against the Red Menace, and even served as a source of inspiration to his eugenicist ideology -- downplay and ignore their own role as a handmaiden to Nazism. Incidentally, in 1953 when the CIA carried out its coup in Iran it was basically run and controlled by people who had made a great deal of money financing the Nazi war effort and then imported a bunch of Nazi war criminals to work for Western intelligence and the space program.

082349872349872 6y ago

Part of Reza Shah's nationalism included viewing his dynasty as being the continuation of a monarchy first established by Cyrus[1], around AUC 200. The roman empire wouldn't be founded until AUC 727. In many parts of the world, 200 km is a long way. In the US, 200 years[2] is a long time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great [2] When I visited עיר דוד/وادي حلوه‎ one of the notable features was its easily defensible water supply. That's an area which has had over 6'000 years of history, with the architecture suggesting very little of it was peaceful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David

grugagag 6y ago

> By this logic, everything is a direct consequence of what came before. Let’s just blame all of our problems on the Roman Empire. As a nation we aren't learning any lesson from history, instead we're letting ourselves be manipulated by psychopathic politicians and regurgitate back what they program us with. What will happen in the future in that middle east region is also a consequence of the same us policy (nothing has really changed) the US continue to have in the area: hunger for oil at any cost whatsoever. Let's not blame the Romans for they don't exist anymore. The US exists and should have some accountability, at least to us the citizens. You're either blind or choose to not see, whichever you prefer.