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Firearm owners are primarily a danger to themselves, followed by those close to them. Our long-standing epidemic of firearm-induced suicide could be tempered by

Firearm owners are primarily a danger to themselves, followed by those close to them. Our long-standing epidemic of firearm-induced suicide could be tempered by better gun regulation.

logicchains 6y ago
From the graphs there it doesn't seem like there's a correlation between national gun ownership and suicide rates.
- chmod775 6y ago
  https://ourworldindata.org/suicide#gun-prevalence https://ourworldindata.org/suicide#gun-prevalence
  - logicchains 6y ago
    That's within America, not a comparison of national rates. In spite of America having a much higher gun ownership rate than other countries it doesn't appear to have a particularly high suicide rate.
    - Kednicma 6y ago
      Go compare the USA and its suicide, gun ownership, and veteran rates, as a composite metric, with Switzerland and Israel, which I'm choosing because they're rich democracies with mandatory military service and relatively high rates of gun ownership; one is very reserved, one is more aggressive than the USA, and neither has the endemic problem of military veterans using service-issued firearms to commit suicide. I found [0] to be a decent introduction to the problem; one needs to take a birds-eye view in order to see it. [0] https://everytownresearch.org/report/those-who-serve-addressing-firearm-suicide-among-military-veterans/ https://everytownresearch.org/report/those-who-serve-address...
      - watwut 6y ago
        The big difference is that American veterans are more likely to be people deployed into combat zone for extensive length of time. Also, being American soldier affects your family situation quite a lot - they have much higher rates of divorces then general population. The mandatory military service in Switzerland is not comparable to being American soldier.
    - dasudasu 6y ago
      It doesn't, but it would likely be even lower still without guns. Owning a gun is a risk factor for impulsive suicides particularly.
  - akvadrako 6y ago
    The graph I think you're pointing to is about "suicide by firearm", not "suicide rates" in general. Of course with fewer guns people will choose other methods.
    - chmod775 6y ago
      I meant to point to the paragraph next to it: > (ii) firearms are also strongly related to overall suicides – despite evidence for substantial substitution in method of suicide;
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      Perhaps the paper the graph is taken from would be helpful? https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicide.pdf https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicid... They go through several different models and their findings that gun ownership is associated with suicide in the US seem rather robust. There is a lot more to suicide of course: divorce, depression, alcohol use and more.
      - roenxi 6y ago
        > their findings that gun ownership is associated with suicide in the US seem rather robust. Robust is a strong word for that finding. I haven't read the paper extremely closely but page 13 suggests they have a 16 variable linear factor regression for 150 observations. With that sort of model a small but statistically detectable correlation isn't the sort of result that ends arguments. Realistically it should be discarded out of hand as a evidence for any sort of action; the effect is too small and there are too many ways that result could be misleading for both practical and statistical reasons.
- bloak 6y ago
  I wouldn't really expect to see such a correlation because there are certainly other factors that have a significantly greater effect on suicide rates and there aren't that many independent countries (so you can't accurately measure from such a small "sample" of "possible" countries) and gun ownership isn't independent of other factors that are known to influence suicide rates: for example, the suicide rate tends to fall (I've been told) during armed conflicts while there is probably a positive correlation between gun ownership and armed conflicts. Probably you could reduce the suicide rate in a US State by (further) restricting gun ownership though it's anyone's guess by how much and it probably wouldn't make a huge difference, I would guess.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    Here is a paper that tries to get something of an estimate of how much restricting gun ownership would decrease suicide. https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicide.pdf https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicid... It's not perfect, of course, but probably better than a random guess.
- simion314 6y ago
  It could also depend on how handy the guns are. If people on certain countries keep their guns locked then teens can just grab them and do bad stuff with them where in some other countries the kids can just go and grab the shotgun(I seen on a YT video where a popular guy, engineer not some farmer, sends his kid to go and grab his gun )
  - itsoktocry 6y ago
    >engineer not some farmer Can you explain what you mean by this? Is the engineer supposed to be "too smart" to allow his children to handle guns?
    - simion314 6y ago
      I was expecting that more educated people are more aware of the risk of having guns in the home not locked. Mainly I was thinking that someone would reply that I probably seen some rare case on YT and most people are locking their guns.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- gvd 6y ago
  Correct. But we all know Americans aren't responsible citizens
itsoktocry 6y ago
>Our long-standing epidemic of firearm-induced suicide could be tempered by better gun regulation. Are you implying that a significant number of firearm suicides are done with illegal firearms? I'm skeptical of that, being from Canada. If not, what would more regulation do?
- kiba 6y ago
  Legal ownership doesn't implies training.
  - itsoktocry 6y ago
    >Legal ownership doesn't implies training. You literally have to pass a firearms safety course in Canada to legally purchase and own a gun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_and_acquisition_licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_and_acquisition_lic...

Firearm owners are primarily a danger to themselves, followed by those close to them. Our long-standing epidemic of firearm-induced suicide could be tempered by better gun regulation.

logicchains 6y ago

From the graphs there it doesn't seem like there's a correlation between national gun ownership and suicide rates.

chmod775 6y ago
https://ourworldindata.org/suicide#gun-prevalence https://ourworldindata.org/suicide#gun-prevalence
- logicchains 6y ago
  That's within America, not a comparison of national rates. In spite of America having a much higher gun ownership rate than other countries it doesn't appear to have a particularly high suicide rate.
  - Kednicma 6y ago
    Go compare the USA and its suicide, gun ownership, and veteran rates, as a composite metric, with Switzerland and Israel, which I'm choosing because they're rich democracies with mandatory military service and relatively high rates of gun ownership; one is very reserved, one is more aggressive than the USA, and neither has the endemic problem of military veterans using service-issued firearms to commit suicide. I found [0] to be a decent introduction to the problem; one needs to take a birds-eye view in order to see it. [0] https://everytownresearch.org/report/those-who-serve-addressing-firearm-suicide-among-military-veterans/ https://everytownresearch.org/report/those-who-serve-address...
    - watwut 6y ago
      The big difference is that American veterans are more likely to be people deployed into combat zone for extensive length of time. Also, being American soldier affects your family situation quite a lot - they have much higher rates of divorces then general population. The mandatory military service in Switzerland is not comparable to being American soldier.
  - dasudasu 6y ago
    It doesn't, but it would likely be even lower still without guns. Owning a gun is a risk factor for impulsive suicides particularly.
- akvadrako 6y ago
  The graph I think you're pointing to is about "suicide by firearm", not "suicide rates" in general. Of course with fewer guns people will choose other methods.
  - chmod775 6y ago
    I meant to point to the paragraph next to it: > (ii) firearms are also strongly related to overall suicides – despite evidence for substantial substitution in method of suicide;
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    Perhaps the paper the graph is taken from would be helpful? https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicide.pdf https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicid... They go through several different models and their findings that gun ownership is associated with suicide in the US seem rather robust. There is a lot more to suicide of course: divorce, depression, alcohol use and more.
    - roenxi 6y ago
      > their findings that gun ownership is associated with suicide in the US seem rather robust. Robust is a strong word for that finding. I haven't read the paper extremely closely but page 13 suggests they have a 16 variable linear factor regression for 150 observations. With that sort of model a small but statistically detectable correlation isn't the sort of result that ends arguments. Realistically it should be discarded out of hand as a evidence for any sort of action; the effect is too small and there are too many ways that result could be misleading for both practical and statistical reasons.
bloak 6y ago
I wouldn't really expect to see such a correlation because there are certainly other factors that have a significantly greater effect on suicide rates and there aren't that many independent countries (so you can't accurately measure from such a small "sample" of "possible" countries) and gun ownership isn't independent of other factors that are known to influence suicide rates: for example, the suicide rate tends to fall (I've been told) during armed conflicts while there is probably a positive correlation between gun ownership and armed conflicts. Probably you could reduce the suicide rate in a US State by (further) restricting gun ownership though it's anyone's guess by how much and it probably wouldn't make a huge difference, I would guess.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  Here is a paper that tries to get something of an estimate of how much restricting gun ownership would decrease suicide. https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicide.pdf https://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/BriggsTabarrokFirearmsSuicid... It's not perfect, of course, but probably better than a random guess.
simion314 6y ago
It could also depend on how handy the guns are. If people on certain countries keep their guns locked then teens can just grab them and do bad stuff with them where in some other countries the kids can just go and grab the shotgun(I seen on a YT video where a popular guy, engineer not some farmer, sends his kid to go and grab his gun )
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  >engineer not some farmer Can you explain what you mean by this? Is the engineer supposed to be "too smart" to allow his children to handle guns?
  - simion314 6y ago
    I was expecting that more educated people are more aware of the risk of having guns in the home not locked. Mainly I was thinking that someone would reply that I probably seen some rare case on YT and most people are locking their guns.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
gvd 6y ago
Correct. But we all know Americans aren't responsible citizens

itsoktocry 6y ago

>Our long-standing epidemic of firearm-induced suicide could be tempered by better gun regulation. Are you implying that a significant number of firearm suicides are done with illegal firearms? I'm skeptical of that, being from Canada. If not, what would more regulation do?

kiba 6y ago
Legal ownership doesn't implies training.
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  >Legal ownership doesn't implies training. You literally have to pass a firearms safety course in Canada to legally purchase and own a gun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_and_acquisition_licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_and_acquisition_lic...