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> There's no obvious problem that unions would solve - No more stack ranking or other absurd professional advancement schemes - Refusing unethical business pr

> There's no obvious problem that unions would solve - No more stack ranking or other absurd professional advancement schemes - Refusing unethical business practices (to take an example in the spotlight again, reusing 2FA phone numbers for any other purpose) - Refusing unethical business relationships (China, ICE) - Higher liquidation preferences for more employees - Working hours (end of "unlimited" vacation; on-call restrictions; prior to COVID, WFH) - Racial and sexual harassment across vertical hierarchies (unions alone won't solve these problems in tech - they can even make horizontal harassment worse if union leadership is not committed to this goal - but could have ousted e.g. Gundotra or Drummond much sooner)

eru 6y ago
You can already pick your employer based on these criteria. What makes you think unions will push these harder? Also what about people who have different preferences? You might get lucky and the brave new world of software unions will push for exactly those conditions. Unluckily for me, I have very different preferences.
- Frondo 6y ago
  "If you don't like the working conditions, you can leave." Why does that only apply when people are trying to dismiss the value of unions or discourage their colleagues from forming a union with their coworkers? Surely if you didn't want to work in a union shop, but a majority of your coworkers did, it'd be on you to just find a new employer.
  - eru 6y ago
    You are right! Though one caveat: that simple analysis only applies for as long as employers are legally allowed to refuse to hire union members. Then anti-union me can go to some anti-union company. We write in our employment contract that I won't join a union, and that the company will never hire any union members, and we live happily ever after. You can try to think through the consequences of giving unions various legal privileges. Eg if for example, a company can't legally discriminate against union members in hiring nor fire an established employee who joins a union despite having promised not to, things might be different. Especially if you add in common extra privileges like banning employers from firing striking unions members or if picketing is legalised etc.
- nandhinianand 6y ago
  Because currently there's a employer PR, services like glassdoor, etc. but still not enough power to influence or avoid future bad faith executive decisions. I think the case of google's work on a defense project counts. When I was a fresh grad, Google was the great, good go-to place, it has changed. Given how big it is I don't know what effect Unions can have, and I hate the negative nepotistic and other effects of Unions, but an argument could be made, google would still be true to the "Don't be evil", if there were unions.* P.S: Admittedly it's just an argument that may not be tested/testable.
  - eru 6y ago
    Would this argument in favour of unions work the same in favour of sending representatives of the Pope to companies? Why or why not?
- morelisp 6y ago
  > What makes you think unions will push these harder? Well, FAANG themselves certainly worries they will, they keep firing the organizers.

eru 6y ago

You can already pick your employer based on these criteria. What makes you think unions will push these harder? Also what about people who have different preferences? You might get lucky and the brave new world of software unions will push for exactly those conditions. Unluckily for me, I have very different preferences.

Frondo 6y ago
"If you don't like the working conditions, you can leave." Why does that only apply when people are trying to dismiss the value of unions or discourage their colleagues from forming a union with their coworkers? Surely if you didn't want to work in a union shop, but a majority of your coworkers did, it'd be on you to just find a new employer.
- eru 6y ago
  You are right! Though one caveat: that simple analysis only applies for as long as employers are legally allowed to refuse to hire union members. Then anti-union me can go to some anti-union company. We write in our employment contract that I won't join a union, and that the company will never hire any union members, and we live happily ever after. You can try to think through the consequences of giving unions various legal privileges. Eg if for example, a company can't legally discriminate against union members in hiring nor fire an established employee who joins a union despite having promised not to, things might be different. Especially if you add in common extra privileges like banning employers from firing striking unions members or if picketing is legalised etc.
nandhinianand 6y ago
Because currently there's a employer PR, services like glassdoor, etc. but still not enough power to influence or avoid future bad faith executive decisions. I think the case of google's work on a defense project counts. When I was a fresh grad, Google was the great, good go-to place, it has changed. Given how big it is I don't know what effect Unions can have, and I hate the negative nepotistic and other effects of Unions, but an argument could be made, google would still be true to the "Don't be evil", if there were unions.* P.S: Admittedly it's just an argument that may not be tested/testable.
- eru 6y ago
  Would this argument in favour of unions work the same in favour of sending representatives of the Pope to companies? Why or why not?
morelisp 6y ago
> What makes you think unions will push these harder? Well, FAANG themselves certainly worries they will, they keep firing the organizers.