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It’s honestly a shame that we didn’t keep pursuing sail technology. It’s great that we’re finally getting somewhere environmentally-friendly with ship tech nowa

It’s honestly a shame that we didn’t keep pursuing sail technology. It’s great that we’re finally getting somewhere environmentally-friendly with ship tech nowadays as in the OP, but if we’d put the same amount of effort to innovate and advance sails like we did steam, I imagine we’d have pretty amazing (and completely green) methods of transport for all but the heaviest cargo loads (and even then, just split the load across multiple ships?). Of course, nowadays the tech is probably so far behind that the cost of the necessary innovations to “catch up” sails to modern powering methods is completely prohibitive; I guess the environment will continue to take one for the team...

bnegreve 6y ago
> It’s honestly a shame that we didn’t keep pursuing sail technology. We did, modern sail boats are much faster than they used to be and can almost sail against the wind (~30° from the wind direction). Fastest sail boats can cross the Atlantic in few days now. (speed record: 3days15h [1]) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_sailing_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_sailing_record
- lm28469 6y ago
  Isn't it purely for sport though ?
sosborn 6y ago
I’m genuinely curious, what innovations could there possibly be for sails beyond increasing surface area or either the sails or the keel?
- satori99 6y ago
  It is worth noting that rigging and sails for lightweight racing hulls has evolved way beyond anything that has ever been used commercially -- And would look quite weird (though still recognizable) to a 19th C sailor [0]. Also, the material science involved in creating laminated sailcloth is very close to state-of-the-art. Of course, racing yachts go fast because they weigh very little. Also, Kitesails [1] have been proposed many times over the last few decades, but I've not heard of anyone using one commercially. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/11/airbus-seawing-kite-sails-to-cut-fuel-costs-for-cargo-ships-20/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/11/airbus-seawing-kite-sai...
  - berkes 6y ago
    Skysails[1] sells them commercially. I cannot find how many ships operate those other than two "prototypes"[2] [1] https://www.skysails-group.com/ https://www.skysails-group.com/ [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails#Treibstoffeinsparung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails#Treibstoffeinsparung
- just-ok 6y ago
  I’m no expert, but it’s possible that advances in material science, our understanding of wind & ocean currents, GPS, etc. over the last, what, 150 years? all could massively improve efficiency. As far as I know, humanity was still improving sailing tech till the steam engine dominated it. I guess my point is that it’s impossible to tell where we could’ve been now without actually having those years of iteration & innovation; the steam engine quickly and abruptly stymied all developments on that front.
- genocidicbunny 6y ago
  I can't imagine there would be that many. Sails just don't provide all that much motive force, and they're far too unreliable (wind dies down, it doesn't matter how much sail you have.) Maybe the GP was thinking more along the lines of general 'green' tech -- wind turbines, solar panels, etc? It would certainly be cool to see more of those to supplement existing propulsion systems on ships, and that would help reduce the amount of fuel burned for shipping, which uses some of the dirtiest fractions of petroleum.
  - just-ok 6y ago
    Combining technologies would absolutely be a great way to pivot, as the article shows. Maybe it’s a dumb question, but why don’t we have sails on modern ships as a supplement? I just lament that we basically completely abandoned such a great mechanism (sails) so haphazardly just because coal was cheap & reliable; now the environment pays the price.
    - genocidicbunny 6y ago
      Sails take quite a bit of space to store, they aren't exactly the lightest thing, and you need training and coordination of the sailors to deal with them. They also probably just dont provide enough benefit to offset the costs -- as I said before, sails don't actually provide that much force. There are a lot of smaller boats that have both sail and mechanical engines, but that only works because they're small enough that the sails can provide a significant amount of force. And if you look at the transition period between the Age of Sail and Age of Steam, there were a lot of boats and ships that had both sail and steam engines. The sails were mainly relegated to backup, or to help out the steam engines, but these hybrids existed.
    - tomrod 6y ago
      We use the form factor quite differently. A game and watch is about the size of a cell phone these days.
    - stonemetal12 6y ago
      At 10 mph wind, sails generate about 0.256 pounds of force per square foot (according to random website found via google). Therefore your several ton cargo ship gets next to nothing from sails.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Only thing I could think of would be a hybrid boat...sail + solar powered / wind powered electric motor?
- edaemon 6y ago
  They don't work like a traditional sail but "rotor sails" are a fairly recent innovation and seem interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship I've seen articles here and there about adding them to tankers to increase fuel efficiency.
- aembleton 6y ago
  Off the top of my head: - Motorised rotation of the sails to capture the wind. - Automated tacking.
- rstuart4133 6y ago
  As someone who was a racing dingy sailor in his youth, the answer is a gob smacklying lot of improvements have occurred in my lifetime, mostly this century. Have a look at the America's cup races. Eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y325JWyRslE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y325JWyRslE The first thing that hits you is the hull isn't in the water. The next thing is the sail boats in a modest breeze are giving the powered boats a run for their money speed wise. One thing that is not so obvious is the sails are now more aerofoils. Back in the day, boats that had no hulls were a mad mans dream. Now we call them kite surfers. Some exotic ones have keel hanging from a bit of rope.
hoorayimhelping 6y ago
I think you're vastly underestimating how slow it is to ship things by sail. Take a look at some of the routes boats had to take to avoid the doldrums and find favorable winds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_in_the_Age_of_Sail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_in_the_Age_of_Sail. Having to sail 2/3 of the way to America just to stay in good winds added 3 weeks to a month to every trip out of Spain or Portugal. Take a look at the clipper route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_route. To ship goods across the world by sail in any reasonable amount of time, you have to sail way down in the southern ocean, where the winds and seas are incredibly rough and dangerous, and many many people have died horribly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Forties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Forties. We stopped using sails, because people were tired of sailors taking one for the team.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dgivney 6y ago
  You are correct for that time period and technology. Linen sails on square rigged vessels required directional winds towards your destination, as they were only efficient for downwind sailing. Things have greatly improved with the wide adoption of the Bermuda Rig allowing you to efficiently set a course on all points of sail; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_rig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_rig There's many challenges for sailing commercial freight but I don't think this would be as much of an issue these days.
  - berkes 6y ago
    Also note that many ships don't require speed. Yes, your avocado's have to be delivered very time-sensitive. But coal, oil, soy and most other bulk not so much. In fact, due to price-fluctuations, ships delivering bulk goods sometimes deliberately slow down their route (but I cannot find the incident where and when this was reported anymore) Edit: three guys I know, operate a sail-powered cargo service [1]. Time is a factor, not because clients require speedy delivery, but because paying three sailors for 2 weeks on-board is more expensive than 3 days. They deliver e.g. chocolate from the west-indies to Amsterdam with their boat. [1] https://fairtransport.eu/nl/tres-hombres/ https://fairtransport.eu/nl/tres-hombres/
irishjohnnie 6y ago
> It’s honestly a shame that we didn’t keep pursuing sail technology ... You mean something like this? https://www.top-yachtdesign.com/oceanwings-by-vplp/ https://www.top-yachtdesign.com/oceanwings-by-vplp/

bnegreve 6y ago

> It’s honestly a shame that we didn’t keep pursuing sail technology. We did, modern sail boats are much faster than they used to be and can almost sail against the wind (~30° from the wind direction). Fastest sail boats can cross the Atlantic in few days now. (speed record: 3days15h [1]) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_sailing_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_sailing_record

lm28469 6y ago
Isn't it purely for sport though ?

sosborn 6y ago

I’m genuinely curious, what innovations could there possibly be for sails beyond increasing surface area or either the sails or the keel?

satori99 6y ago
It is worth noting that rigging and sails for lightweight racing hulls has evolved way beyond anything that has ever been used commercially -- And would look quite weird (though still recognizable) to a 19th C sailor [0]. Also, the material science involved in creating laminated sailcloth is very close to state-of-the-art. Of course, racing yachts go fast because they weigh very little. Also, Kitesails [1] have been proposed many times over the last few decades, but I've not heard of anyone using one commercially. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/11/airbus-seawing-kite-sails-to-cut-fuel-costs-for-cargo-ships-20/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/11/airbus-seawing-kite-sai...
- berkes 6y ago
  Skysails[1] sells them commercially. I cannot find how many ships operate those other than two "prototypes"[2] [1] https://www.skysails-group.com/ https://www.skysails-group.com/ [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails#Treibstoffeinsparung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails#Treibstoffeinsparung
just-ok 6y ago
I’m no expert, but it’s possible that advances in material science, our understanding of wind & ocean currents, GPS, etc. over the last, what, 150 years? all could massively improve efficiency. As far as I know, humanity was still improving sailing tech till the steam engine dominated it. I guess my point is that it’s impossible to tell where we could’ve been now without actually having those years of iteration & innovation; the steam engine quickly and abruptly stymied all developments on that front.
genocidicbunny 6y ago
I can't imagine there would be that many. Sails just don't provide all that much motive force, and they're far too unreliable (wind dies down, it doesn't matter how much sail you have.) Maybe the GP was thinking more along the lines of general 'green' tech -- wind turbines, solar panels, etc? It would certainly be cool to see more of those to supplement existing propulsion systems on ships, and that would help reduce the amount of fuel burned for shipping, which uses some of the dirtiest fractions of petroleum.
- just-ok 6y ago
  Combining technologies would absolutely be a great way to pivot, as the article shows. Maybe it’s a dumb question, but why don’t we have sails on modern ships as a supplement? I just lament that we basically completely abandoned such a great mechanism (sails) so haphazardly just because coal was cheap & reliable; now the environment pays the price.
  - genocidicbunny 6y ago
    Sails take quite a bit of space to store, they aren't exactly the lightest thing, and you need training and coordination of the sailors to deal with them. They also probably just dont provide enough benefit to offset the costs -- as I said before, sails don't actually provide that much force. There are a lot of smaller boats that have both sail and mechanical engines, but that only works because they're small enough that the sails can provide a significant amount of force. And if you look at the transition period between the Age of Sail and Age of Steam, there were a lot of boats and ships that had both sail and steam engines. The sails were mainly relegated to backup, or to help out the steam engines, but these hybrids existed.
  - tomrod 6y ago
    We use the form factor quite differently. A game and watch is about the size of a cell phone these days.
  - stonemetal12 6y ago
    At 10 mph wind, sails generate about 0.256 pounds of force per square foot (according to random website found via google). Therefore your several ton cargo ship gets next to nothing from sails.
chrisco255 6y ago
Only thing I could think of would be a hybrid boat...sail + solar powered / wind powered electric motor?
edaemon 6y ago
They don't work like a traditional sail but "rotor sails" are a fairly recent innovation and seem interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship I've seen articles here and there about adding them to tankers to increase fuel efficiency.
aembleton 6y ago
Off the top of my head: - Motorised rotation of the sails to capture the wind. - Automated tacking.
rstuart4133 6y ago
As someone who was a racing dingy sailor in his youth, the answer is a gob smacklying lot of improvements have occurred in my lifetime, mostly this century. Have a look at the America's cup races. Eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y325JWyRslE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y325JWyRslE The first thing that hits you is the hull isn't in the water. The next thing is the sail boats in a modest breeze are giving the powered boats a run for their money speed wise. One thing that is not so obvious is the sails are now more aerofoils. Back in the day, boats that had no hulls were a mad mans dream. Now we call them kite surfers. Some exotic ones have keel hanging from a bit of rope.

hoorayimhelping 6y ago

I think you're vastly underestimating how slow it is to ship things by sail. Take a look at some of the routes boats had to take to avoid the doldrums and find favorable winds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_in_the_Age_of_Sail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_in_the_Age_of_Sail. Having to sail 2/3 of the way to America just to stay in good winds added 3 weeks to a month to every trip out of Spain or Portugal. Take a look at the clipper route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_route. To ship goods across the world by sail in any reasonable amount of time, you have to sail way down in the southern ocean, where the winds and seas are incredibly rough and dangerous, and many many people have died horribly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Forties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Forties. We stopped using sails, because people were tired of sailors taking one for the team.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dgivney 6y ago
You are correct for that time period and technology. Linen sails on square rigged vessels required directional winds towards your destination, as they were only efficient for downwind sailing. Things have greatly improved with the wide adoption of the Bermuda Rig allowing you to efficiently set a course on all points of sail; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_rig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_rig There's many challenges for sailing commercial freight but I don't think this would be as much of an issue these days.
- berkes 6y ago
  Also note that many ships don't require speed. Yes, your avocado's have to be delivered very time-sensitive. But coal, oil, soy and most other bulk not so much. In fact, due to price-fluctuations, ships delivering bulk goods sometimes deliberately slow down their route (but I cannot find the incident where and when this was reported anymore) Edit: three guys I know, operate a sail-powered cargo service [1]. Time is a factor, not because clients require speedy delivery, but because paying three sailors for 2 weeks on-board is more expensive than 3 days. They deliver e.g. chocolate from the west-indies to Amsterdam with their boat. [1] https://fairtransport.eu/nl/tres-hombres/ https://fairtransport.eu/nl/tres-hombres/

irishjohnnie 6y ago

> It’s honestly a shame that we didn’t keep pursuing sail technology ... You mean something like this? https://www.top-yachtdesign.com/oceanwings-by-vplp/ https://www.top-yachtdesign.com/oceanwings-by-vplp/