8 ms·
The Expansion of the Clean Network to Safeguard America’s Assets
- PatrolX 6y agoTrump's building a Firewall
- naringas 6y agosoon there will no longer be the one internet. There will internet one for the USA and the "west", internet two for China and the "east" internet. and maybe a third type of internet for some countries which connects two both Internets (but maybe only one at a time?) so we'll have first internet countries (USA), second internet countries (China), and third internet countries (both)
- markus_zhang 6y agoYeah read/saw that somewhere...
- donavanm 6y ago> we'll have first internet countries (USA), second internet countries (China), and third internet countries (both) This does not seem to be limited to network connectivity. The same balkanization is occurring with trade, movement of people, and defence spending as well. I would also say that its not as discrete as “USA”, “China”, “other” and is probably better expressed as “US aligned” when you start looking at nations who are already members of groups like N Eyes, EEA, Belt & Road, etc. Im particularly interested in India. Will they be successful enough to create their own sphere, fall into US influence, or defacto continue as a large unaligned “other.”
- scottlamb 6y agoYou're describing the Cold War-era First World (US-aligned countries), Second World (socialist countries), and Third World (unaligned countries).
- donavanm 6y agoI understand the parallels. I was trying to prod gp that it extends to dimensions beyond “internet” and they seem to be trending in the same direction. I do disagree that the old First/Second/Third characterizations are directly applicable. It looks to be more multipolar. The interesting points to me are, roughly, EU federalism/integration/defense, how closely/how many N Eyes will cluster with the US, and which “BRICS” will be large enough to stand on their own or even pull small “others” in to their sphere of influence. We’re not just swapping PRC for USSR. My guess is, roughly, sustainable alignments to the US, EU, and China. Sufficiently independent & influential states of India and Russia. Brazil & South Africa I dont really see them developing their own sphere nor being large enough to sustain independent major economic development along the lines of Hauwei, Airbus, TSMC, Qualcomm, Boeing, etc.
- dgellow 6y agoThat’s already the case. You have at least China’s Internet, Russia’s Internet, France is discussing ways to do the same, Australia seems to want to do it too, Thailand did some experiments a few years ago, etc.
- fermienrico 6y agoYet, no one seems to care what is unloaded from the ship docks, literally a "Port" where 98% of the goods are manufactured in one country including the entire supply chain that spans behind those goods.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoThat's debatable. On Intellectual Property Rights alone, U.S. Customs and Border Protection has this to stay about seizures, arrests, and convictions in 2019 alone: US$1.5 billion 256 arrests and 197 convictions https://www.cbp.gov/trade/priority-issues/ipr/statistics https://www.cbp.gov/trade/priority-issues/ipr/statistics
- fermienrico 6y agoNot talking about IP problems, just the sheer number of things around you that are made in China are imported into the country.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoRight, yeah, pretty much everything is made in China, Vietnam, Thailand, and Bangladesh. And Indonesia, as an Australian I notice that quite a bit. I dunno, they all seem to be fairly reasonable people, the one's I've met. Hard.
- oh_sigh 6y agoIt's unlikely my craftsman plumbers wrench is going to exfiltrate my personal data off my private home network.
- 6y ago
- ardy42 6y ago> soon there will no longer be the one internet. There will internet one for the USA and the "west", internet two for China and the "east" internet. Soon? How about years ago. The Great Firewall already accomplishes what you describe. You can't use Google in China, and you wouldn't want to use Baidu's censored search in the US.
- jas- 6y agoWhy aren’t there lines of effort for hardware manufacturing processes, firmware and logistical supply chains?
- fermienrico 6y agoThis is where the focus should be. The entire world has put all eggs in one nest. That's just asking for trouble.
- Rebelgecko 6y agoThere are, especially when you look at the DOD/IC side of things. A lot of effort is being put into trying to reduce the risk of a a nontrusted or malicious supply chain (which ranges from issues like counterfeit FPGAs to hardware shipped with nefarious firmware)
- knzhou 6y agoTime to get a VPN if you want to communicate across the Great Firewall of America.
- knzhou 6y agoCurious about the downvotes. Do people believe that this curtailment of freedom can't happen in America? I know people already rushing to prepare for it. Or perhaps they believe that it will happen, but that it's a good thing? Or perhaps, as is increasingly common, they believe both simultaneously: "China's firewall restricts freedom; our copy of it promotes freedom."
- _-___________-_ 6y ago> "China's firewall restricts freedom; our copy of it promotes freedom." Sadly, I think there are a lot of people who would believe that.
- oh_sigh 6y agoSort of the difference between a wall that keeps you in versus a wall that keeps unwelcome people out. But then again, some people believe that the us-mexico border wall is morally equivalent to the Berlin Wall, so who knows how that argument will go.
- knzhou 6y ago> Sort of the difference between a wall that keeps you in versus a wall that keeps unwelcome people out. And how do you think the Chinese state describes the Chinese firewall?
- oh_sigh 6y agoI don't know, but it is clear that the Chinese firewall is about preventing Chinese people from accessing the wider internet, not about preventing non-chinese people from accessing the Chinese internet.
- YarickR2 6y agoHere goes Fiber Curtain
- mundo 6y agoThis is incredibly vague. Is this a proposal for some kind of standard or protocol? It says that "many of the world’s biggest telecommunications companies are Clean Telcos", so whatever it is it can't be that difficult to achieve. Is someone familiar enough with this to provide a source that discusses what "Clean Carrier/Telco/Store/etc" entails technically?
- Aperocky 6y ago> PRC apps threaten our privacy, proliferate viruses, and spread propaganda and disinformation. It's hard to discern propaganda from the attempt to fight it nowadays, or maybe there never was a difference in the first place.
- fatbird 6y agoThis isn't about technology, it's about organizations and vendors. It's saying that PRC carriers may not connect directly to US telecommunications networks; that PRC apps cannot be available in app stores selling to US customers; that PRC smartphone manufacturers may not bypass the restriction on stores by selling phones to Americans with PRC apps pre-installed; that US cloud properties must be accessible to PRC companies; and that undersea cables aren't tapped by PRC intelligence agencies. It's not about technology, it's about a business qualification for US telecoms and technology companies like Apple and Amazon. If they meet these standards, they're part of the "clean network" (which is just ugly obvious racism). As a practical matter, this is dubious because there's hundreds of ways around these requirements bureaucratically. The value of this is the threat to China, that specific examples like TikTok can be chosen and banned; or that third parties like European businesses might move away from China to avoid jeopardizing U.S. business. This is just another front in the trade war.
- quantified 6y agoI’d like to see some evidence of 5G being actually cleanable. See for example https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/24/new-4g-5g-security-flaws/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/24/new-4g-5g-security-flaws/
- Aperocky 6y agoAs long as it did not contain equipment from specific foreign firm or countries, that's the standard. Brought to you from the proponent to outlaw encryption, what other evidence do you expect.
- zzzeek 6y agoSpyware from CHINA will not be tolerated. However if the apps are spyware from Russia (who have already attacked our electoral systems directly and successfully), hey take what you want!
- _-___________-_ 6y agoFrom a position external to both China and the US, it's really hard to see a meaningful difference between the vague propaganda and doublespeak in this announcement and the same kind of announcements from the CCP.
- taneq 6y agoThat's because there isn't any.
- fatbird 6y agoI don't think this is propaganda or doublespeak. It's an escalation of the trade war with China by threatining to ban PRC participation in the U.S. economy--basically what they're threatening to do to TikTok except across several areas of the economy.
- est 6y agoA funny coincidence: The "Clean Network" was literally the exact same as "净网" campaigns in China which CCP unleash fierce crackdown on media and Internet to purge unwelcome content. Or is it a name to troll CCP?
- odomojuli 6y agoI hate the name, even the colonial imperialist associations with Cyber Monroe Doctrine sound more diplomatic than Clean Network. This literally sounds like an intellectual purge. Maybe because it is. This is a very purge-y purge name for a purge. I guess we've officially thrown our hat into the ring for digital sovereignty and cyberpopulism. I wanted some decentralization but not like this. I'm just upset that China gets Great Firewall and Russia gets Digital Iron Curtain and we get... Clean Network. Is it too much to ask that we at least have better marketing for our authoritarianism? Also, seems like a dated understanding. What happens when the Internet reaches comparable availability via satellite? No wonder they want to test shooting missiles in orbit. With EARN-IT, the H1-B ban, Clean Network, etc., I fear we're setting back our scientific and intellectual advantage several generations. The lessons of the Crypto Wars feel distinctly appropriate. I'm certainly starting to feel the wind blow a certain direction. Only the paranoid survive.
- yegle 6y agoThe name is very likely a play on China's "净网行动" (literally translate to: a campaign to cleanse the Internet). Unfortunately there's no much English reference for it, but https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hans/%E6%89%AB%E9%BB%84%E6%89%93%E9%9D%9E%C2%B7%E5%87%80%E7%BD%912014?wprov=sfla1 https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hans/%E6%89%AB%E9%BB%84%E6%89%93... is a Wiki page in Chinese.
- fatbird 6y agoThe name is an obviously racist play on the word "clean", because what makes something clean is no contact with the "dirty" Chinese. The Trump administration is not as literate as you suggest.
- chloerei 6y ago"clean net 2014" mainly cleans up pornographic content.
- yegle 6y agoNo, it's a way to censor a lot of websites or push them to self-censor their content. There are multiple waves of "Campaign to cleanse the Internet". The linked wiki page is for 2014 and the latest one is in 2020: http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2020-04/11/content_5501287.htm http://www.gov.cn/xinwen/2020-04/11/content_5501287.htm
- alexmingoia 6y agoRestricting communication with China isn’t just a restriction on China, but on Americans. These laws prevent Americans from freely associating. You see the same spin with immigration and trade restrictions. They are in fact a restriction of Americans’ freedom to trade and associate, but are always presented from the other angle (as a restriction on foreigners).
- totetsu 6y agoA lot of the investigative journalism that goes on these days often involves people just looking at the traces left out in the open on public websites. Think of how much of what we know of the regional suppression programs in Xinjiang comes from volunteers looking at government requests for contractors and the like. A world without a shared internet is a world where Human rights abuses can carry on unobserved.
- koonsolo 6y agoWhen I (EU citizen) was on holliday in Cuba, I met a woman from US who had to do some special things to be able to visit that country as a tourist. She tried to make sure the US didn't know about it. "Freedom" is very relative indeed.
- aSplash0fDerp 6y agoIf they called it "Dim Some Networks", do you think the US could make a billion people laugh at the same time? The Internet has been the best version of Dim Sum for a hungry mind, so its a shame possesive cultures ruined it for themselves...
- aSplash0fDerp 6y agoAppreciate the DV`s :) Some jokes never get old [0]. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_finger_trap https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_finger_trap
- radegast 6y agoyo, why bother putting footnote in like that? Just link it directly...
- mistrial9 6y agoAs a US Citizen on the West Coast, my unadvertised research servers have been harassed by PRC IPs and others, without fail, for a decade+. I am not at all associated with the US Federal Government, and do not practice partisan politics. All I know is, I have done nothing myself to PRC China, yet my basic linux and BSD setups are daily refusing all kinds of stupid and smart hack attacks via the Internet from that address range.
- cmroanirgo 6y agoAs a non US Citizen, not living on US soil, my unadvertised research servers have been harassed by, well, everyone, including US servers for years as well. C'est la vie. eg. I set up a new domain a few days ago & within a short period of time, the first two IP's to run sniffers on it were US based (Arizona and Illinois, IIRC). eg. A server I set up a few months back was getting hammered on an alternate SSH port, primarily by US servers. (Admittedly, there was a mis-configuration on my part which had the port responding to anyone but me in the first place) Pot. Kettle. Black. As time progresses, the ongoing war of of 'openness' vs 'sovereign rights' when it comes to the internet has only escalated, and will obviously continue. Mr Trump's decision has clearly favoured the Chinese method of 'sovereign rights': countries and regional zones will be increasingly demanding dominance of their feifdom (such as GDPR vs Chinese wall vs Australian AAA "Assistance & Access Act" vs California's CCPA). How should tech respond? It's either the web should be un-splittable, or infinitely splittable. We all know it's 'self healing'... but only to the limit that state level access allows it. Some would say the easiest solution would be a de-escalation of the network centralisation that the web has: AWS, GC, Cloudflare, FB, Twitter. But, the (ironic) concept of "federation" that exists (Mastodon, NextCloud), only makes a single server cluster easier to be sliced off. Either way, a single voice can be cut off by state level/mega corporate, whether it be a centralised system or federated, far too easily. That even Mr Trump is getting tweets and FB posts 'moderated' is a sign that centralisation by corporations is definitely a problem.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kinguking 6y ago
- ardy42 6y ago> Clean Carrier: To ensure untrusted People’s Republic of China (PRC) carriers are not connected with U.S. telecommunications networks. Such companies pose a danger to U.S. national security and should not provide international telecommunications services to and from the United States. I hope this doesn't affect international roaming while in the PRC, which tunnels all your traffic through your home country. That's how I get around the firewall when I'm there.
- sraw333 6y agoIs this another way to attract the public's attention? I mean, I am very curious about why there is nobody even cares about the coronavirus any more. All of them are focusing on some "ethereal" problems. And just let the city down, let the people die. Why there is no further national-wide action? Trump is always asking for re-opening, asking the school to re-open, asking the community to re-open. Well, I understand that is good/essential for the economy. But the question is, how? Maybe you don't believe, there are around 5M infected people in the US, which means for every 100 people, there is one who is/was infected. And the even more ridiculous thing is, this number is still rocketing, no sign to stop. Every day, I can see many homeless, they don't have to be homeless, but the country is still sick, they have no choice. I really hope there could be one day that we can back to normal days. The sun, the flowers, the people.
- ushery 6y agoFor a moment I can't tell whether this is a state department's press release or a comment below Bill Gates' instagram post.
- Keverw 6y agoChina blocks and keeps out US companies like Google, so not really that surprised. If they can't use Google, why should we use TikTok? But on the other hand this does seem a bit concerning, the cool thing about the internet is it connects the world, someone in the US could be friends with someone in the Netherlands and even collaborate on projects and stuff using Github, etc. So if blocking off China is ok instead of building more secure systems, wonder if this is a step down the wrong path? First China, who's next? But I've already found this stuff is strange, like a Android Phone manufactured in China can't even go to Google's website unless you ship the phone out of China or VPN etc yet Google makes Android... I think it'd be cool to have fully automated factories, just pour in raw materials and new phones pop out. Could even have mini factories closer to where you are selling them too. I do think all the processors or other component being made overseas for critical systems could also be a weakness.
- chj 6y ago"To remove untrusted applications from U.S. mobile app stores." What is trusted?
- LatteLazy 6y agoAnyone part of the republican party donor association.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- LatteLazy 6y agoI am caught in a difficult position. On one hand, I think this is BS and its political, not about security. On the other hand, fuck the CCP (democracy, treatment of minorities, HK, Coronavirus, war with India, South China Seas BS, what's not to hate?).
- ezVoodoo 6y agoI am puzzled. Was the Prism project clean or dirty?
- radium3d 6y agoAre Trump and Pompeo building a great firewall of censorship the same as China's "great" firewall? Keep the internet open. Don't be like China.