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> In any case, it seems like you are just looking for a way to rationalize your current behavior. Not in the least. I find ads annoying and I don‘t have any sk

> In any case, it seems like you are just looking for a way to rationalize your current behavior. Not in the least. I find ads annoying and I don‘t have any skin in the game when it comes to advertising. But it‘s not a matter of simply trying Brave. I want to understand how it works for users and also for publishers. And I want to understand how it is not a proprietary system with a gatekeeper role as a structural feature.

rglullis 6y ago
Their advertisement network is only one and the browser gives them some leverage, but there is nothing stopping someone else to create a similar alternative. Brave already has been forked (Dissenter Browser) that remove the BAT side of things. Outside of the potential mooning of the token which would make them rich, I don't really see anything they have that gives them such a dangerous moat. Hell, a competitor could even decide to have an advertisement network that also operates with the BAT supply that has been taken out of the exchanges. If for some reason the company starts doing anything user-hostile, they will lose the business to someone else. The only important thing is that anything is better than the status quo. If you are weary of Brave, you can go for something like flattr, or you can start looking into crypto as a way to pay directly for those you want to support (and still keep your privacy). Whatever you decide, just please realize that "I don't like ads, but I don't see any good alternative" is not a valid statement anymore.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  >Their advertisement network is only one and that uses the browser, but there is nothing stopping any one else to create a similar alternative. Does Brave support a way for other ad networks to integrate into their BAT system? If not, any competitor would first have to popularise their own web browser.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    There is no "their BAT system". It's all on the blockchain. BAT is just a token like any other on the Ethereum chain. The "easiest" way to acquire at the moment is by using the Browser and setting up the wallet, but if you don't want to that you can just go any exchange and trade it. Or you can have a website and accept it as payment. I am sorry if I made you on focus on the specifics of Brave when the point of my original post was to say that there are alternatives nowadays for ads. Alternatives that may not be perfect, but that do work and are better than the status quo. In any case, I think that the best way for you to understand how things work and make sense of what I am saying is if you try it yourself. You can start by using Brave on your phone to replace Chrome or Safari and get a feel of things, see how the rewards system work, etc.
    - fauigerzigerk 6y ago
      > There is no "their BAT system". It's all on the blockchain. What I mean is Brave‘s specific Browser integration that creates a compensation scheme for publishers. I would only support such a system if it doesn‘t put Brave a privileged gatekeeper position. I’m not sure which other alternatives you‘re talking about specifically, but I have explained many times elsewhere in this debate why I see subscription based services as an additional loss of privacy and why I don‘t believe that there can ever be a widely used general purpose system of anonymous electronic payments. But I do believe that a Brave style system could work if it can be structured in away that does not allow one company to impose content restrictions.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        It's an ad network. There is nothing stopping other browsers to adopt it. There is nothing stopping other companies to create a similar alternative. There is nothing stopping a publisher to get an advertisement deal and place an ad on their website; as long as it does not use third-party cookies or tracks you in any way, it won't be blocked. > subscription based services (...) loss of privacy (...) there can ever be a widely used general purpose system of anonymous electronic payments. Look, I am not trying to sell you anything ok? I don't work at Brave and I am not interested in doing shilling for any specific cryptotoken. It's okay if you want to say "I don't want to pay for content that I am now getting for free. It's also okay to say "I don't mind having my data exploited in exchange of a few dollars that can go to content producers and publishers". The only things that you are saying that are total BS is that (1) ad-tech is less of threat to privacy than a digital economy based on crypto and (2) that no alternative currently exist. Your argument against usage of cryptocurrency for payments is just concern trolling. You are presenting a very, very unlikely hypothetical (companies might be required to collect user data to accept payments) in order to justify the status quo. Likewise, you are making these near-impossible demands from a company that has a fraction of the market share on a trillion dollar industry while having no qualms with all of the ethical violations from the dominant oligarchy. Again, concern trolling.

rglullis 6y ago

Their advertisement network is only one and the browser gives them some leverage, but there is nothing stopping someone else to create a similar alternative. Brave already has been forked (Dissenter Browser) that remove the BAT side of things. Outside of the potential mooning of the token which would make them rich, I don't really see anything they have that gives them such a dangerous moat. Hell, a competitor could even decide to have an advertisement network that also operates with the BAT supply that has been taken out of the exchanges. If for some reason the company starts doing anything user-hostile, they will lose the business to someone else. The only important thing is that anything is better than the status quo. If you are weary of Brave, you can go for something like flattr, or you can start looking into crypto as a way to pay directly for those you want to support (and still keep your privacy). Whatever you decide, just please realize that "I don't like ads, but I don't see any good alternative" is not a valid statement anymore.

fauigerzigerk 6y ago
>Their advertisement network is only one and that uses the browser, but there is nothing stopping any one else to create a similar alternative. Does Brave support a way for other ad networks to integrate into their BAT system? If not, any competitor would first have to popularise their own web browser.
- rglullis 6y ago
  There is no "their BAT system". It's all on the blockchain. BAT is just a token like any other on the Ethereum chain. The "easiest" way to acquire at the moment is by using the Browser and setting up the wallet, but if you don't want to that you can just go any exchange and trade it. Or you can have a website and accept it as payment. I am sorry if I made you on focus on the specifics of Brave when the point of my original post was to say that there are alternatives nowadays for ads. Alternatives that may not be perfect, but that do work and are better than the status quo. In any case, I think that the best way for you to understand how things work and make sense of what I am saying is if you try it yourself. You can start by using Brave on your phone to replace Chrome or Safari and get a feel of things, see how the rewards system work, etc.
  - fauigerzigerk 6y ago
    > There is no "their BAT system". It's all on the blockchain. What I mean is Brave‘s specific Browser integration that creates a compensation scheme for publishers. I would only support such a system if it doesn‘t put Brave a privileged gatekeeper position. I’m not sure which other alternatives you‘re talking about specifically, but I have explained many times elsewhere in this debate why I see subscription based services as an additional loss of privacy and why I don‘t believe that there can ever be a widely used general purpose system of anonymous electronic payments. But I do believe that a Brave style system could work if it can be structured in away that does not allow one company to impose content restrictions.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      It's an ad network. There is nothing stopping other browsers to adopt it. There is nothing stopping other companies to create a similar alternative. There is nothing stopping a publisher to get an advertisement deal and place an ad on their website; as long as it does not use third-party cookies or tracks you in any way, it won't be blocked. > subscription based services (...) loss of privacy (...) there can ever be a widely used general purpose system of anonymous electronic payments. Look, I am not trying to sell you anything ok? I don't work at Brave and I am not interested in doing shilling for any specific cryptotoken. It's okay if you want to say "I don't want to pay for content that I am now getting for free. It's also okay to say "I don't mind having my data exploited in exchange of a few dollars that can go to content producers and publishers". The only things that you are saying that are total BS is that (1) ad-tech is less of threat to privacy than a digital economy based on crypto and (2) that no alternative currently exist. Your argument against usage of cryptocurrency for payments is just concern trolling. You are presenting a very, very unlikely hypothetical (companies might be required to collect user data to accept payments) in order to justify the status quo. Likewise, you are making these near-impossible demands from a company that has a fraction of the market share on a trillion dollar industry while having no qualms with all of the ethical violations from the dominant oligarchy. Again, concern trolling.