7 ms·

Why Elon Musk is not an engineer

23 points by ryzvonusef 6y ago

nabla9 6y ago
>What engineer would Elon Musk be? Elon Musk would be engineer in Industrial Engineering (sometimes Industrial Engineering and Management). Industrial engineers do just the kind of jobs Elon Musk does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering Elon Musk has no formal engineering degree, but he clearly is industrial engineer by profession. His approach to business and problem solving is typical industrial engineering approach. His actual degrees (BS in both economics and physics) have good overlap with undergraduate curriculum in IE.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
asguy 6y ago
I’d love to know if the blogger is (themselves) a Masters wielding “Engineer”. This argument was semi-recently dealt with in the Oregon courts. - https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/ https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-eng...
xt00 6y ago
His undergrad was physics, and many engineers I’ve worked with started in physics then spent 1.5-2 years doing a masters in mechanical or electrical or aerospace engineering. So does Elon have the equivalent of 1.5-2 years of work as say an aerospace engineer in the past 20 years? Yea I think so..
- dharmon 6y ago
  Then I guess by this logic the CEO of Boeing (who has a degree in accounting) is also an engineer?
  - fsociety 6y ago
    Well did he do many years of engineering work? It’s perfectly valid to become a chemical engineer, demonstrate knowledge in electrical engineering, and then become an electrical engineer without a degree. This is an accepted path.
    - dharmon 6y ago
      I think this is the point of the article. Besides some coding a long time ago, nobody has presented evidence that he's ever done actual engineering. Do you think PMs should be able to call themselves engineers? They know the work pretty well, many (at least in SV) have undergrad degrees in STEM, they can talk the lingo. They've just never actually written code. Some people would even protest PMs who used to be engineers still calling themselves that. I think Musk knows things at the level of a technically-strong PM. But I think if you asked him to some basic tasks in structural engineering, for instance, he would have no idea what to do.
  - xt00 6y ago
    An undergrad degree in physics from my personal observation is typically quite math heavy and you learn mechanics, electrical theory, and many people in their 2nd year for their senior projects build fairly practical things. No idea what that was like back in the 90s for somebody like Elon. So I think its a bit different from an accounting degree.
darkcha0s 6y ago
Another elitist gatekeeping the term engineer. Nothing to see here.
jasode 6y ago
just a meta fyi... one can go to the wikipedia "talk" page for the Elon Musk article and the topmost debate is the designation of "engineer": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elon_Musk#Rfc:_Musk_as_an_engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elon_Musk#Rfc:_Musk_as_an... Do a Ctrl+F in your browser for "engineer" and the highlights of that word will light up the whole page like a Christmas tree.
Barrin92 6y ago
Generally agree with the post and I think the proliferation of the engineering term is somewhat problematic, because to a general audience it implies a sort of rigor that isn't always present, see 'software engineer'. I think Musk is a businessman but I'm not really sure if he's ever done actual engineering work, and the title gives him a sort of undue authority when he speaks on technical matters, for example his statements on the state of AI[1], the progress of autonomous driving, or generally other fantastical statements. It also takes attention away from the people who deserve it. Say, Tom Mueller at SpaceX, who is responsible for a good amount of actual engineering work but I figure most people haven't even heard of. [1]https://twitter.com/an_open_mind/status/1260528928617369601?s=20 https://twitter.com/an_open_mind/status/1260528928617369601?...
- cvaidya1986 6y ago
  He did coding for Zip2
  - zalkota 6y ago
    Why does one need a $150k certificate to be an engineer. I went to a top engineering school, everything could be learned by reading engineering textbooks. Based on experience, Elon is an engineer.
    - avgDev 6y ago
      Hiring smart engineers, does not mean Elon Musk is an engineer. Unless, Elon himself did actual engineering work. He did some software dev at Zip2 but then it has been mostly investments. I think it is fair to say he is a businessman instead of an engineer.
  - egsmi 6y ago
    That’s actually an interesting reply to the parent because, according to his book, his work was not rigorous and all needed to be redone. https://www.quora.com/Did-Elon-Musk-write-any-code-at-X-or-Zip2 https://www.quora.com/Did-Elon-Musk-write-any-code-at-X-or-Z...
carlosdp 6y ago
> There is no evidence that Musk actually (partly) designed any of the creations his companies spawned. That's not really true though. He's on several patents, and accounts from people who work with him are that he spends a lot of time working on engineering problems. I don't think he's like working on sims or anything, but he seems to be pretty involved in the high level engineering decisions and understand everything that goes into his companies' products.
- gregoriol 6y ago
  Does being on a patent mean that the person actually worked on the engineering of the idea? or worked at all on the idea? I'm not sure how patents work but I don't think anybody verifies the names on it or what they actually did, and I guess in a company effort it could easily be the boss ending on it too?
  - mrosett 6y ago
    Legally speaking, only people who actually worked on the invention can be on the patent. I believe (not a lawyer) that including extra people can be grounds for invalidating that patent. However, this does still get abused; Elizabeth Holmes was on many of the patents filed by Theranos.
- unmole 6y ago
  It's not uncommon for someone up the corporate hierarchy who didn't directly contribute to be named as an inventor on the patent.
- ulfw 6y ago
  That doesn't mean anything. Here's the list of Steve Jobs 323 patents: http://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/24/technology/steve-jobs-patents.html http://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/...
  - boxed 6y ago
    I think you are proving the opposite point you think you're proving ;)
pmdulaney 6y ago
"Why Elon Musk is not an engineer" is an ambiguous title. It could mean: a. Why Elon Musk made a decision at some point not to become an engineer; or b. Why I (the author of this post) do not consider Elon Musk to be an engineer, despite what he claims for himself. This post is all about option b.
mips_avatar 6y ago
I really dislike gatekeeping on people calling themselves engineers. There’s a very narrow case for certification for some civil engineering work. Other than that I think it’s important to remember engineering started as a heroic endeavor to build technology to lift people out of the struggles of the 19th century with applied science. You’re an engineer if you choose to apply science to make the world better.
- woah 6y ago
  I’ll wager that he’s never driven a locomotive even once
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Toutouxc 6y ago
My european bachelor's degree (three years in the Czech Republic) literally says "software engineering" on it. We also use the czech equivalent "inženýr" (Ing.) as the name for the master's degree.
tibbydudeza 6y ago
That tweet of Elon regarding April and Covid did not age well.
sanbor 6y ago
Following that criteria then Nikola Tesla is not an engineer because he never graduated from university[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#Early_years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#Early_years
smabie 6y ago
> In my opinion however, an engineer is someone who has gone through years of training and has obtained a master’s degree in engineering. So first, we assume Musk isn't an engineer in order to prove he isn't an engineer? Who cares, the question is meaningless, much like this blog post.
TeeWEE 6y ago
I think the writer wrote it because he thinks titles are important, and that you have to earn it. Get some stamp of approval. But in the real world titles don't matter that much. They are just a tool to organize the world, to categorize. In my opinion, if you start painting today. You're a painter. maybe not a good one, but a painter nonetheless. Because you paint. Don't focus on titles. focus on actions, on doing. making the world a better place. Titles don't matter in the end. I think Elon Musk tackles problems from an technical point of view. First principles. He identifies himself with an engineer. But in the end his actions are what matter.
Nomentatus 6y ago
FWIW: "engineer" is a term that goes right back to Ancient Roman times, people who could build or repair siege engines were "engineers." I'm pretty sure they didn't have degrees for that, back then. Elon is not a "Professional Engineer" (which is a term in law) and could be brought to court if he made that claim in an ad in many countries. He is an engineer, as Tesla was.

23 points by ryzvonusef 6y ago

>What engineer would Elon Musk be? Elon Musk would be engineer in Industrial Engineering (sometimes Industrial Engineering and Management). Industrial engineers do just the kind of jobs Elon Musk does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering Elon Musk has no formal engineering degree, but he clearly is industrial engineer by profession. His approach to business and problem solving is typical industrial engineering approach. His actual degrees (BS in both economics and physics) have good overlap with undergraduate curriculum in IE.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

asguy 6y ago

I’d love to know if the blogger is (themselves) a Masters wielding “Engineer”. This argument was semi-recently dealt with in the Oregon courts. - https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/ https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-eng...

xt00 6y ago

His undergrad was physics, and many engineers I’ve worked with started in physics then spent 1.5-2 years doing a masters in mechanical or electrical or aerospace engineering. So does Elon have the equivalent of 1.5-2 years of work as say an aerospace engineer in the past 20 years? Yea I think so..

dharmon 6y ago
Then I guess by this logic the CEO of Boeing (who has a degree in accounting) is also an engineer?
- fsociety 6y ago
  Well did he do many years of engineering work? It’s perfectly valid to become a chemical engineer, demonstrate knowledge in electrical engineering, and then become an electrical engineer without a degree. This is an accepted path.
  - dharmon 6y ago
    I think this is the point of the article. Besides some coding a long time ago, nobody has presented evidence that he's ever done actual engineering. Do you think PMs should be able to call themselves engineers? They know the work pretty well, many (at least in SV) have undergrad degrees in STEM, they can talk the lingo. They've just never actually written code. Some people would even protest PMs who used to be engineers still calling themselves that. I think Musk knows things at the level of a technically-strong PM. But I think if you asked him to some basic tasks in structural engineering, for instance, he would have no idea what to do.
- xt00 6y ago
  An undergrad degree in physics from my personal observation is typically quite math heavy and you learn mechanics, electrical theory, and many people in their 2nd year for their senior projects build fairly practical things. No idea what that was like back in the 90s for somebody like Elon. So I think its a bit different from an accounting degree.

darkcha0s 6y ago

Another elitist gatekeeping the term engineer. Nothing to see here.

jasode 6y ago

just a meta fyi... one can go to the wikipedia "talk" page for the Elon Musk article and the topmost debate is the designation of "engineer": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elon_Musk#Rfc:_Musk_as_an_engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elon_Musk#Rfc:_Musk_as_an... Do a Ctrl+F in your browser for "engineer" and the highlights of that word will light up the whole page like a Christmas tree.

Barrin92 6y ago

Generally agree with the post and I think the proliferation of the engineering term is somewhat problematic, because to a general audience it implies a sort of rigor that isn't always present, see 'software engineer'. I think Musk is a businessman but I'm not really sure if he's ever done actual engineering work, and the title gives him a sort of undue authority when he speaks on technical matters, for example his statements on the state of AI[1], the progress of autonomous driving, or generally other fantastical statements. It also takes attention away from the people who deserve it. Say, Tom Mueller at SpaceX, who is responsible for a good amount of actual engineering work but I figure most people haven't even heard of. [1]https://twitter.com/an_open_mind/status/1260528928617369601?s=20 https://twitter.com/an_open_mind/status/1260528928617369601?...

cvaidya1986 6y ago
He did coding for Zip2
- zalkota 6y ago
  Why does one need a $150k certificate to be an engineer. I went to a top engineering school, everything could be learned by reading engineering textbooks. Based on experience, Elon is an engineer.
  - avgDev 6y ago
    Hiring smart engineers, does not mean Elon Musk is an engineer. Unless, Elon himself did actual engineering work. He did some software dev at Zip2 but then it has been mostly investments. I think it is fair to say he is a businessman instead of an engineer.
- egsmi 6y ago
  That’s actually an interesting reply to the parent because, according to his book, his work was not rigorous and all needed to be redone. https://www.quora.com/Did-Elon-Musk-write-any-code-at-X-or-Zip2 https://www.quora.com/Did-Elon-Musk-write-any-code-at-X-or-Z...

carlosdp 6y ago

> There is no evidence that Musk actually (partly) designed any of the creations his companies spawned. That's not really true though. He's on several patents, and accounts from people who work with him are that he spends a lot of time working on engineering problems. I don't think he's like working on sims or anything, but he seems to be pretty involved in the high level engineering decisions and understand everything that goes into his companies' products.

gregoriol 6y ago
Does being on a patent mean that the person actually worked on the engineering of the idea? or worked at all on the idea? I'm not sure how patents work but I don't think anybody verifies the names on it or what they actually did, and I guess in a company effort it could easily be the boss ending on it too?
- mrosett 6y ago
  Legally speaking, only people who actually worked on the invention can be on the patent. I believe (not a lawyer) that including extra people can be grounds for invalidating that patent. However, this does still get abused; Elizabeth Holmes was on many of the patents filed by Theranos.
unmole 6y ago
It's not uncommon for someone up the corporate hierarchy who didn't directly contribute to be named as an inventor on the patent.
ulfw 6y ago
That doesn't mean anything. Here's the list of Steve Jobs 323 patents: http://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/24/technology/steve-jobs-patents.html http://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/...
- boxed 6y ago
  I think you are proving the opposite point you think you're proving ;)

pmdulaney 6y ago

"Why Elon Musk is not an engineer" is an ambiguous title. It could mean: a. Why Elon Musk made a decision at some point not to become an engineer; or b. Why I (the author of this post) do not consider Elon Musk to be an engineer, despite what he claims for himself. This post is all about option b.

mips_avatar 6y ago

I really dislike gatekeeping on people calling themselves engineers. There’s a very narrow case for certification for some civil engineering work. Other than that I think it’s important to remember engineering started as a heroic endeavor to build technology to lift people out of the struggles of the 19th century with applied science. You’re an engineer if you choose to apply science to make the world better.

woah 6y ago
I’ll wager that he’s never driven a locomotive even once
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Toutouxc 6y ago

My european bachelor's degree (three years in the Czech Republic) literally says "software engineering" on it. We also use the czech equivalent "inženýr" (Ing.) as the name for the master's degree.

tibbydudeza 6y ago

That tweet of Elon regarding April and Covid did not age well.

sanbor 6y ago

Following that criteria then Nikola Tesla is not an engineer because he never graduated from university[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#Early_years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#Early_years

smabie 6y ago

> In my opinion however, an engineer is someone who has gone through years of training and has obtained a master’s degree in engineering. So first, we assume Musk isn't an engineer in order to prove he isn't an engineer? Who cares, the question is meaningless, much like this blog post.

TeeWEE 6y ago

I think the writer wrote it because he thinks titles are important, and that you have to earn it. Get some stamp of approval. But in the real world titles don't matter that much. They are just a tool to organize the world, to categorize. In my opinion, if you start painting today. You're a painter. maybe not a good one, but a painter nonetheless. Because you paint. Don't focus on titles. focus on actions, on doing. making the world a better place. Titles don't matter in the end. I think Elon Musk tackles problems from an technical point of view. First principles. He identifies himself with an engineer. But in the end his actions are what matter.

Nomentatus 6y ago

FWIW: "engineer" is a term that goes right back to Ancient Roman times, people who could build or repair siege engines were "engineers." I'm pretty sure they didn't have degrees for that, back then. Elon is not a "Professional Engineer" (which is a term in law) and could be brought to court if he made that claim in an ad in many countries. He is an engineer, as Tesla was.