4 ms·

The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small plastic parts for al

The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small plastic parts for all the buttons, sliders, and whatnot. However this makes me wonder: is it still cheaper when using a large expensive panel like Tesla does? And even if so, what place do such cost-cutting measures have in [ostensibly] luxury vehicles?

rlayton2 6y ago
They are easier to update too with new features and buttons. The parent's point about tactile being better when driving is still valid though.
deelowe 6y ago
I wonder if this is a price thing or more of a result of Tesla's development model. With a touchscreen, you can design and iterate. UX can be delayed until the latest stages of development when you already have physical designs in hand. Then again, we're probably over thinking it. I'm sure cool factor was the #1 reason for this sort of implementation.
cma 6y ago
> large expensive panel like Tesla Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but is not great environmentally.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Ah yes, I recall something about this. They tried to pretend the fans were a safety feature to keep kids/dogs safe in parked cars, except the fans didn't automatically turn on until the car was already hot enough to be lethal.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I’m genuinely surprised that never killed anyone. Marketing that as a “pet and child mode” just seemed to beg for problems.
    - Tostino 6y ago
      Don't own a Tesla, and am just going from memory. I believe the "pet mode" was implemented the same time the interior protection feature was. So the pet mode was a user option to allow the car to be kept at a reasonable temp for pets / kids, whereas the interior protection feature would automatically kick in if it got too hot regardless of what the user wanted.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  The interior couldn't handle the heat of being parked in the sun? This is a very basic standard. Every BMW, ford, Ferrari or Honda is tested in a chamber with heat lamps. I cannot imagine any Honda engineer suggesting that the car run the AC in order to protect the interior parts. And it isn't all about the customer. Would one of these teslas survived on a used car lot? Could it survive being transported across the country on the back of a truck? A car that cannot survive direct sunlight is a logistical nightmare.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    That’s the difference between screens designed for cars and what Tesla picked. Consumer grade LCD panels that might be used in monitors or TVs aren’t designed to sit in 150F heat repeatedly, while a LCD panel for a car absolutely should be.
  - detaro 6y ago
    A lot of what's "very basic standard" for other car companies gets ignored by Tesla. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      I understand the need to break conventions, but there is a heat advisory in my area today. My Honda gets parked outside. And when things go wrong I occasionally do 15+ hour shifts. I'd be screaming mad if I came out after one of those days to find my car's battery was dead and the screen delaminated. But that is why I bought a Honda. I cannot sync my ipod list with my google cloud account, but it always starts when I ask it to.
      - detaro 6y ago
        Another example in the "bad!1" category is the flash chips in one of the control units. They had logging enabled, and over time the control unit killed its own flash chips by overwriting them too often. Needs the entire unit changed, or finding someone who'll solder fresh chips in. Where a traditional design would have taken care to run entirely from a read-only storage, and if there is logging needed, to log to an extra partition that doesn't stop the system from working if it becomes unavailable.
jeffbee 6y ago
There's no way that's the reason. I just recently bought an instance of the cheapest car Honda still markets in the USA and it has _great_ steering wheel controls, improved even from the ergonomics of my last Honda which was a top-of-the-line model and trim. 18 functions on the face of the wheel, more stuff on two paddles and two stalks behind the wheel. It's one of the cheapest cars you can buy. https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43f.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/19XZE4F58ME000358/5193c0b8006da064d9c8561ef0eeb6c1.jpg https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43...
- kube-system 6y ago
  Honda products are also consistently higher priced compared to their competitors. The Fit is basically the most expensive (and nicest) subcompact economy car in the US. Other competitors are willing to sacrifice those details in order to undercut Honda (also note the mirror and window controls): https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Chevy-Spark-Interior.png https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Che... The Spark starts at $1700 under the price of the Fit.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Yikes. Still it looks like it has physical buttons for everything. Probably just doesn't have cruise control and lane keeping and therefore doesn't need buttons for that?
    - kube-system 6y ago
      No buttons for the mirrors or the windows, because they're not even power! The spec sheet doesn't list power locks as a feature either, it says the car comes with "Keys, rigid (2)" It definitely doesn't have cruise or lane keep assist.
mdorazio 6y ago
I work in the automotive industry. Short answer: yes, it's still cheaper. Three things to consider: 1) Tesla's panel is not expensive. For a long time (maybe still), it wasn't automotive grade (rated for high temperature and shock/crash-proof operation) - they just used a standard consumer panel - bulk cost likely well under $300. For comparison, that's about the same cost as a traditional automotive head unit alone. Other items not included in a model 3 are also not cheap - for example, a standard wiper switch assembly is about $25 since it's fairly complicated and has pretty high QA standards. A standard instrument cluster is going to be close to $100. 2) You have to consider manufacturing cost, not just parts cost. Wiring is a huge pain in the ass on an assembly line since it's very difficult to automate and it's easy to mess up, so the more things you have to wire to different places in the cabin, the more labor time you have to pay for. Running everything via a single screen means you only have to wire components to the CAN bus and can drop a lot of the usual driver controls wiring harness pain. 3) The HN crowd is not indicative of the wider market. I learned this the hard way when working on an LCD-hard button hybrid interface for head unit controls. A lot of customers (maybe even most) absolutely love touch screens and think the Tesla central panel is fantastic. For them, an all-touch central interface is a marketing win rather than a drawback that needs to be explained away as a cost cutting measure. Model 3 is not targeted at older, high-end luxury vehicle buyers, it's targeted at environmentally conscious tech enthusiasts with a decent amount of cash and a bit of a craving for status signalling. If you draw a venn diagram, there's a pretty big overlap between this segment and the "wants touch controls" segment.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  But by your own logic all they saved was, at most, $25 on a wiper switch, but they didn't really because the Tesla 3 already has a stalk on both sides, with all the associated labor. And, again according to your own evidence, they saved this tiny amount of money by doubling down on what is undoubtedly the most expensive component of the interior: the head unit and its display.
  - pdabbadabba 6y ago
    That's not how I read it. GP's #1 says that you're already saving $25 just looking at the cost of parts because the panel is about the same price as a traditional head unit and then there's the wiper switch. (Maybe you're right though, that they're not really saving on the switch.) But then, #2, you factor in the cost savings associated with simplified manufacturing (which, as GP explains, goes well beyond just the wiper switch). This is what makes the panel approach much cheaper.
loulouxiv 6y ago
Tesla large panels are quite cheap since they are not automotive grade. However not being designed to stand the high temperatures that can be found in a vehicle habitacle under the sun, depending of the climate in your area they will eventually fry every 6 months.

rlayton2 6y ago

They are easier to update too with new features and buttons. The parent's point about tactile being better when driving is still valid though.

deelowe 6y ago

I wonder if this is a price thing or more of a result of Tesla's development model. With a touchscreen, you can design and iterate. UX can be delayed until the latest stages of development when you already have physical designs in hand. Then again, we're probably over thinking it. I'm sure cool factor was the #1 reason for this sort of implementation.

cma 6y ago

> large expensive panel like Tesla Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but is not great environmentally.

catalogia 6y ago
Ah yes, I recall something about this. They tried to pretend the fans were a safety feature to keep kids/dogs safe in parked cars, except the fans didn't automatically turn on until the car was already hot enough to be lethal.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I’m genuinely surprised that never killed anyone. Marketing that as a “pet and child mode” just seemed to beg for problems.
  - Tostino 6y ago
    Don't own a Tesla, and am just going from memory. I believe the "pet mode" was implemented the same time the interior protection feature was. So the pet mode was a user option to allow the car to be kept at a reasonable temp for pets / kids, whereas the interior protection feature would automatically kick in if it got too hot regardless of what the user wanted.
sandworm101 6y ago
The interior couldn't handle the heat of being parked in the sun? This is a very basic standard. Every BMW, ford, Ferrari or Honda is tested in a chamber with heat lamps. I cannot imagine any Honda engineer suggesting that the car run the AC in order to protect the interior parts. And it isn't all about the customer. Would one of these teslas survived on a used car lot? Could it survive being transported across the country on the back of a truck? A car that cannot survive direct sunlight is a logistical nightmare.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  That’s the difference between screens designed for cars and what Tesla picked. Consumer grade LCD panels that might be used in monitors or TVs aren’t designed to sit in 150F heat repeatedly, while a LCD panel for a car absolutely should be.
- detaro 6y ago
  A lot of what's "very basic standard" for other car companies gets ignored by Tesla. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    I understand the need to break conventions, but there is a heat advisory in my area today. My Honda gets parked outside. And when things go wrong I occasionally do 15+ hour shifts. I'd be screaming mad if I came out after one of those days to find my car's battery was dead and the screen delaminated. But that is why I bought a Honda. I cannot sync my ipod list with my google cloud account, but it always starts when I ask it to.
    - detaro 6y ago
      Another example in the "bad!1" category is the flash chips in one of the control units. They had logging enabled, and over time the control unit killed its own flash chips by overwriting them too often. Needs the entire unit changed, or finding someone who'll solder fresh chips in. Where a traditional design would have taken care to run entirely from a read-only storage, and if there is logging needed, to log to an extra partition that doesn't stop the system from working if it becomes unavailable.

jeffbee 6y ago

There's no way that's the reason. I just recently bought an instance of the cheapest car Honda still markets in the USA and it has _great_ steering wheel controls, improved even from the ergonomics of my last Honda which was a top-of-the-line model and trim. 18 functions on the face of the wheel, more stuff on two paddles and two stalks behind the wheel. It's one of the cheapest cars you can buy. https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43f.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/19XZE4F58ME000358/5193c0b8006da064d9c8561ef0eeb6c1.jpg https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43...

kube-system 6y ago
Honda products are also consistently higher priced compared to their competitors. The Fit is basically the most expensive (and nicest) subcompact economy car in the US. Other competitors are willing to sacrifice those details in order to undercut Honda (also note the mirror and window controls): https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Chevy-Spark-Interior.png https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Che... The Spark starts at $1700 under the price of the Fit.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Yikes. Still it looks like it has physical buttons for everything. Probably just doesn't have cruise control and lane keeping and therefore doesn't need buttons for that?
  - kube-system 6y ago
    No buttons for the mirrors or the windows, because they're not even power! The spec sheet doesn't list power locks as a feature either, it says the car comes with "Keys, rigid (2)" It definitely doesn't have cruise or lane keep assist.

mdorazio 6y ago

I work in the automotive industry. Short answer: yes, it's still cheaper. Three things to consider: 1) Tesla's panel is not expensive. For a long time (maybe still), it wasn't automotive grade (rated for high temperature and shock/crash-proof operation) - they just used a standard consumer panel - bulk cost likely well under $300. For comparison, that's about the same cost as a traditional automotive head unit alone. Other items not included in a model 3 are also not cheap - for example, a standard wiper switch assembly is about $25 since it's fairly complicated and has pretty high QA standards. A standard instrument cluster is going to be close to $100. 2) You have to consider manufacturing cost, not just parts cost. Wiring is a huge pain in the ass on an assembly line since it's very difficult to automate and it's easy to mess up, so the more things you have to wire to different places in the cabin, the more labor time you have to pay for. Running everything via a single screen means you only have to wire components to the CAN bus and can drop a lot of the usual driver controls wiring harness pain. 3) The HN crowd is not indicative of the wider market. I learned this the hard way when working on an LCD-hard button hybrid interface for head unit controls. A lot of customers (maybe even most) absolutely love touch screens and think the Tesla central panel is fantastic. For them, an all-touch central interface is a marketing win rather than a drawback that needs to be explained away as a cost cutting measure. Model 3 is not targeted at older, high-end luxury vehicle buyers, it's targeted at environmentally conscious tech enthusiasts with a decent amount of cash and a bit of a craving for status signalling. If you draw a venn diagram, there's a pretty big overlap between this segment and the "wants touch controls" segment.

jeffbee 6y ago
But by your own logic all they saved was, at most, $25 on a wiper switch, but they didn't really because the Tesla 3 already has a stalk on both sides, with all the associated labor. And, again according to your own evidence, they saved this tiny amount of money by doubling down on what is undoubtedly the most expensive component of the interior: the head unit and its display.
- pdabbadabba 6y ago
  That's not how I read it. GP's #1 says that you're already saving $25 just looking at the cost of parts because the panel is about the same price as a traditional head unit and then there's the wiper switch. (Maybe you're right though, that they're not really saving on the switch.) But then, #2, you factor in the cost savings associated with simplified manufacturing (which, as GP explains, goes well beyond just the wiper switch). This is what makes the panel approach much cheaper.

loulouxiv 6y ago

Tesla large panels are quite cheap since they are not automotive grade. However not being designed to stand the high temperatures that can be found in a vehicle habitacle under the sun, depending of the climate in your area they will eventually fry every 6 months.