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Touch screens are horrible for frequently used controls in cars. Any car you are in is traveling with kinetic energy, so it is likely to bounce and move around

by raiyu 6y ago

Touch screens are horrible for frequently used controls in cars. Any car you are in is traveling with kinetic energy, so it is likely to bounce and move around over the road surface. Without a physical button to rest your finger on it's nearly impossible to get something on the first "touch" unless you are standing still. Yes it looks cool, and yes it's fun to play with on a red light, but using any of these touchscreens even at 50 mph is nearly impossible. Made much worse if it's a sports car and has a bit of a stiffer suspension. One step forward, two steps backwards.

catalogia 6y ago
The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small plastic parts for all the buttons, sliders, and whatnot. However this makes me wonder: is it still cheaper when using a large expensive panel like Tesla does? And even if so, what place do such cost-cutting measures have in [ostensibly] luxury vehicles?
- rlayton2 6y ago
  They are easier to update too with new features and buttons. The parent's point about tactile being better when driving is still valid though.
- deelowe 6y ago
  I wonder if this is a price thing or more of a result of Tesla's development model. With a touchscreen, you can design and iterate. UX can be delayed until the latest stages of development when you already have physical designs in hand. Then again, we're probably over thinking it. I'm sure cool factor was the #1 reason for this sort of implementation.
- cma 6y ago
  > large expensive panel like Tesla Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but is not great environmentally.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Ah yes, I recall something about this. They tried to pretend the fans were a safety feature to keep kids/dogs safe in parked cars, except the fans didn't automatically turn on until the car was already hot enough to be lethal.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      I’m genuinely surprised that never killed anyone. Marketing that as a “pet and child mode” just seemed to beg for problems.
      - Tostino 6y ago
        Don't own a Tesla, and am just going from memory. I believe the "pet mode" was implemented the same time the interior protection feature was. So the pet mode was a user option to allow the car to be kept at a reasonable temp for pets / kids, whereas the interior protection feature would automatically kick in if it got too hot regardless of what the user wanted.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    The interior couldn't handle the heat of being parked in the sun? This is a very basic standard. Every BMW, ford, Ferrari or Honda is tested in a chamber with heat lamps. I cannot imagine any Honda engineer suggesting that the car run the AC in order to protect the interior parts. And it isn't all about the customer. Would one of these teslas survived on a used car lot? Could it survive being transported across the country on the back of a truck? A car that cannot survive direct sunlight is a logistical nightmare.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      That’s the difference between screens designed for cars and what Tesla picked. Consumer grade LCD panels that might be used in monitors or TVs aren’t designed to sit in 150F heat repeatedly, while a LCD panel for a car absolutely should be.
    - 6y ago
- jeffbee 6y ago
  There's no way that's the reason. I just recently bought an instance of the cheapest car Honda still markets in the USA and it has _great_ steering wheel controls, improved even from the ergonomics of my last Honda which was a top-of-the-line model and trim. 18 functions on the face of the wheel, more stuff on two paddles and two stalks behind the wheel. It's one of the cheapest cars you can buy. https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43f.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/19XZE4F58ME000358/5193c0b8006da064d9c8561ef0eeb6c1.jpg https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43...
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Honda products are also consistently higher priced compared to their competitors. The Fit is basically the most expensive (and nicest) subcompact economy car in the US. Other competitors are willing to sacrifice those details in order to undercut Honda (also note the mirror and window controls): https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Chevy-Spark-Interior.png https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Che... The Spark starts at $1700 under the price of the Fit.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Yikes. Still it looks like it has physical buttons for everything. Probably just doesn't have cruise control and lane keeping and therefore doesn't need buttons for that?
      - kube-system 6y ago
        No buttons for the mirrors or the windows, because they're not even power! The spec sheet doesn't list power locks as a feature either, it says the car comes with "Keys, rigid (2)" It definitely doesn't have cruise or lane keep assist.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  I work in the automotive industry. Short answer: yes, it's still cheaper. Three things to consider: 1) Tesla's panel is not expensive. For a long time (maybe still), it wasn't automotive grade (rated for high temperature and shock/crash-proof operation) - they just used a standard consumer panel - bulk cost likely well under $300. For comparison, that's about the same cost as a traditional automotive head unit alone. Other items not included in a model 3 are also not cheap - for example, a standard wiper switch assembly is about $25 since it's fairly complicated and has pretty high QA standards. A standard instrument cluster is going to be close to $100. 2) You have to consider manufacturing cost, not just parts cost. Wiring is a huge pain in the ass on an assembly line since it's very difficult to automate and it's easy to mess up, so the more things you have to wire to different places in the cabin, the more labor time you have to pay for. Running everything via a single screen means you only have to wire components to the CAN bus and can drop a lot of the usual driver controls wiring harness pain. 3) The HN crowd is not indicative of the wider market. I learned this the hard way when working on an LCD-hard button hybrid interface for head unit controls. A lot of customers (maybe even most) absolutely love touch screens and think the Tesla central panel is fantastic. For them, an all-touch central interface is a marketing win rather than a drawback that needs to be explained away as a cost cutting measure. Model 3 is not targeted at older, high-end luxury vehicle buyers, it's targeted at environmentally conscious tech enthusiasts with a decent amount of cash and a bit of a craving for status signalling. If you draw a venn diagram, there's a pretty big overlap between this segment and the "wants touch controls" segment.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    But by your own logic all they saved was, at most, $25 on a wiper switch, but they didn't really because the Tesla 3 already has a stalk on both sides, with all the associated labor. And, again according to your own evidence, they saved this tiny amount of money by doubling down on what is undoubtedly the most expensive component of the interior: the head unit and its display.
    - pdabbadabba 6y ago
      That's not how I read it. GP's #1 says that you're already saving $25 just looking at the cost of parts because the panel is about the same price as a traditional head unit and then there's the wiper switch. (Maybe you're right though, that they're not really saving on the switch.) But then, #2, you factor in the cost savings associated with simplified manufacturing (which, as GP explains, goes well beyond just the wiper switch). This is what makes the panel approach much cheaper.
- loulouxiv 6y ago
  Tesla large panels are quite cheap since they are not automotive grade. However not being designed to stand the high temperatures that can be found in a vehicle habitacle under the sun, depending of the climate in your area they will eventually fry every 6 months.
lazyjones 6y ago
The Model 3 has a very easy to use touchscreen interface for the wipers, it's hard to imagine someone missing it or being distracted for more than 1 second while using it. Apart from that, it also has this feature that makes using the touchscreen for the wipers while driving completely unnecessary (when they're on "automatic"): https://youtu.be/1Rr_XzzJ6gc?t=58 https://youtu.be/1Rr_XzzJ6gc?t=58 Finally, there's also voice controls: "Wipers increase" and you're done. It's not magic, the horrible thing we still have is courts with clueless/uninterested judges.
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  A physical wiper knob is also not magic, but Tesla's engineers were too clueless/uninterested to add it.
- berkes 6y ago
  From the article: > The Tesla Model 3 automatically adjusts the speed of the wipers depending on how heavy its sensors believe the rain is. > It can be switched on and off from the steering wheel, but adjusting the interval needs to be done on the touchscreen. And, more relevant: > ...the driver complained to the higher regional court. Windscreen wiper control was, he argued, a safety-related feature that he needed to access. Your attack on "judges" is misplaced too: > The higher court disagreed, backing the first judgement. Whether or not the screen was a permanent part of the car was irrelevant, it decided - and it did not matter why the driver was looking at a touchscreen while driving, only that he did so. I'm not saying you are, but from your comment it really seems you did not read the article and only rushed into the comments to defend Tesla.
- Jare 6y ago
  > the horrible thing we still have is courts with clueless/uninterested judge The judge is not ruling about the UI/UX or Tesla or the car, only that the driver chose or allowed himself to be distracted and become a danger. You seem to agree that it's the driver's fucking problem to learn how to use the car without becoming a danger, so why would you then go insult the judge?
- detaro 6y ago
  > It's not magic, the horrible thing we still have is courts with clueless/uninterested judges. The driver fiddled with the touchscreen and caused a crash, and was punished for that. So you are saying the driver shouldn't have been punished for fiddling with the touchscreen because he didn't have to use the touchscreen? Wouldn't that be a bigger reason to think the driver is at fault?
momania 6y ago
Added to this, the additional light, especially so close to the front window, reduces your visibility, certainly on pitch dark roads. You'd be amazed how well you can see on a pitch dark road, if all the interior light is switched off (or dimmed to a minimum), with just the running lights. No need for high beams in most cases. Big interior screens make a huge impact on this too.
- nathanlied 6y ago
  You don't even need them to be big, even a low budget car's infotainment touchscreen is enough. Mine has adaptive brightness, so it means that at night in a dark road it'll be at lowest brightness, with black/gray, which makes it even less visible. It's still enough to screw with my night-vision when compared to old cars I had without interior lighting save for some very dim reds on important buttons.
jliptzin 6y ago
The auto wiper on the model 3 works so well that I barely ever have to touch the manual control anyway. The thing I do use way more often is the windshield cleaner which does have a physical control. In the rare case where I need to switch the wipers to manual I have never considered it problematic even while driving.
- Bedon292 6y ago
  For the most part I agree. The problem I have is with light mist or road spray (not this driver's situation) where it doesn't wipe enough, because the top of the windshield where the camera is is fine, but at my eye level it is not. But I just tap the physical button occasionally and don't really tough the manual controls. The manual controls on the screen even pop open when you hit the button, so its just one tap of the screen to adjust the speed.

by raiyu 6y ago

catalogia 6y ago

The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small plastic parts for all the buttons, sliders, and whatnot. However this makes me wonder: is it still cheaper when using a large expensive panel like Tesla does? And even if so, what place do such cost-cutting measures have in [ostensibly] luxury vehicles?

rlayton2 6y ago
They are easier to update too with new features and buttons. The parent's point about tactile being better when driving is still valid though.
deelowe 6y ago
I wonder if this is a price thing or more of a result of Tesla's development model. With a touchscreen, you can design and iterate. UX can be delayed until the latest stages of development when you already have physical designs in hand. Then again, we're probably over thinking it. I'm sure cool factor was the #1 reason for this sort of implementation.
cma 6y ago
> large expensive panel like Tesla Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but is not great environmentally.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Ah yes, I recall something about this. They tried to pretend the fans were a safety feature to keep kids/dogs safe in parked cars, except the fans didn't automatically turn on until the car was already hot enough to be lethal.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I’m genuinely surprised that never killed anyone. Marketing that as a “pet and child mode” just seemed to beg for problems.
    - Tostino 6y ago
      Don't own a Tesla, and am just going from memory. I believe the "pet mode" was implemented the same time the interior protection feature was. So the pet mode was a user option to allow the car to be kept at a reasonable temp for pets / kids, whereas the interior protection feature would automatically kick in if it got too hot regardless of what the user wanted.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  The interior couldn't handle the heat of being parked in the sun? This is a very basic standard. Every BMW, ford, Ferrari or Honda is tested in a chamber with heat lamps. I cannot imagine any Honda engineer suggesting that the car run the AC in order to protect the interior parts. And it isn't all about the customer. Would one of these teslas survived on a used car lot? Could it survive being transported across the country on the back of a truck? A car that cannot survive direct sunlight is a logistical nightmare.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    That’s the difference between screens designed for cars and what Tesla picked. Consumer grade LCD panels that might be used in monitors or TVs aren’t designed to sit in 150F heat repeatedly, while a LCD panel for a car absolutely should be.
  - 6y ago
jeffbee 6y ago
There's no way that's the reason. I just recently bought an instance of the cheapest car Honda still markets in the USA and it has _great_ steering wheel controls, improved even from the ergonomics of my last Honda which was a top-of-the-line model and trim. 18 functions on the face of the wheel, more stuff on two paddles and two stalks behind the wheel. It's one of the cheapest cars you can buy. https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43f.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/19XZE4F58ME000358/5193c0b8006da064d9c8561ef0eeb6c1.jpg https://ef2a5a53b98055d22ce3-7a5c64ec0d36aa3941021bc0fe9ef43...
- kube-system 6y ago
  Honda products are also consistently higher priced compared to their competitors. The Fit is basically the most expensive (and nicest) subcompact economy car in the US. Other competitors are willing to sacrifice those details in order to undercut Honda (also note the mirror and window controls): https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Chevy-Spark-Interior.png https://newchevy2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2021-Che... The Spark starts at $1700 under the price of the Fit.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Yikes. Still it looks like it has physical buttons for everything. Probably just doesn't have cruise control and lane keeping and therefore doesn't need buttons for that?
    - kube-system 6y ago
      No buttons for the mirrors or the windows, because they're not even power! The spec sheet doesn't list power locks as a feature either, it says the car comes with "Keys, rigid (2)" It definitely doesn't have cruise or lane keep assist.
mdorazio 6y ago
I work in the automotive industry. Short answer: yes, it's still cheaper. Three things to consider: 1) Tesla's panel is not expensive. For a long time (maybe still), it wasn't automotive grade (rated for high temperature and shock/crash-proof operation) - they just used a standard consumer panel - bulk cost likely well under $300. For comparison, that's about the same cost as a traditional automotive head unit alone. Other items not included in a model 3 are also not cheap - for example, a standard wiper switch assembly is about $25 since it's fairly complicated and has pretty high QA standards. A standard instrument cluster is going to be close to $100. 2) You have to consider manufacturing cost, not just parts cost. Wiring is a huge pain in the ass on an assembly line since it's very difficult to automate and it's easy to mess up, so the more things you have to wire to different places in the cabin, the more labor time you have to pay for. Running everything via a single screen means you only have to wire components to the CAN bus and can drop a lot of the usual driver controls wiring harness pain. 3) The HN crowd is not indicative of the wider market. I learned this the hard way when working on an LCD-hard button hybrid interface for head unit controls. A lot of customers (maybe even most) absolutely love touch screens and think the Tesla central panel is fantastic. For them, an all-touch central interface is a marketing win rather than a drawback that needs to be explained away as a cost cutting measure. Model 3 is not targeted at older, high-end luxury vehicle buyers, it's targeted at environmentally conscious tech enthusiasts with a decent amount of cash and a bit of a craving for status signalling. If you draw a venn diagram, there's a pretty big overlap between this segment and the "wants touch controls" segment.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  But by your own logic all they saved was, at most, $25 on a wiper switch, but they didn't really because the Tesla 3 already has a stalk on both sides, with all the associated labor. And, again according to your own evidence, they saved this tiny amount of money by doubling down on what is undoubtedly the most expensive component of the interior: the head unit and its display.
  - pdabbadabba 6y ago
    That's not how I read it. GP's #1 says that you're already saving $25 just looking at the cost of parts because the panel is about the same price as a traditional head unit and then there's the wiper switch. (Maybe you're right though, that they're not really saving on the switch.) But then, #2, you factor in the cost savings associated with simplified manufacturing (which, as GP explains, goes well beyond just the wiper switch). This is what makes the panel approach much cheaper.
loulouxiv 6y ago
Tesla large panels are quite cheap since they are not automotive grade. However not being designed to stand the high temperatures that can be found in a vehicle habitacle under the sun, depending of the climate in your area they will eventually fry every 6 months.

lazyjones 6y ago

The Model 3 has a very easy to use touchscreen interface for the wipers, it's hard to imagine someone missing it or being distracted for more than 1 second while using it. Apart from that, it also has this feature that makes using the touchscreen for the wipers while driving completely unnecessary (when they're on "automatic"): https://youtu.be/1Rr_XzzJ6gc?t=58 https://youtu.be/1Rr_XzzJ6gc?t=58 Finally, there's also voice controls: "Wipers increase" and you're done. It's not magic, the horrible thing we still have is courts with clueless/uninterested judges.

AlexandrB 6y ago
A physical wiper knob is also not magic, but Tesla's engineers were too clueless/uninterested to add it.
berkes 6y ago
From the article: > The Tesla Model 3 automatically adjusts the speed of the wipers depending on how heavy its sensors believe the rain is. > It can be switched on and off from the steering wheel, but adjusting the interval needs to be done on the touchscreen. And, more relevant: > ...the driver complained to the higher regional court. Windscreen wiper control was, he argued, a safety-related feature that he needed to access. Your attack on "judges" is misplaced too: > The higher court disagreed, backing the first judgement. Whether or not the screen was a permanent part of the car was irrelevant, it decided - and it did not matter why the driver was looking at a touchscreen while driving, only that he did so. I'm not saying you are, but from your comment it really seems you did not read the article and only rushed into the comments to defend Tesla.
Jare 6y ago
> the horrible thing we still have is courts with clueless/uninterested judge The judge is not ruling about the UI/UX or Tesla or the car, only that the driver chose or allowed himself to be distracted and become a danger. You seem to agree that it's the driver's fucking problem to learn how to use the car without becoming a danger, so why would you then go insult the judge?
detaro 6y ago
> It's not magic, the horrible thing we still have is courts with clueless/uninterested judges. The driver fiddled with the touchscreen and caused a crash, and was punished for that. So you are saying the driver shouldn't have been punished for fiddling with the touchscreen because he didn't have to use the touchscreen? Wouldn't that be a bigger reason to think the driver is at fault?

momania 6y ago

Added to this, the additional light, especially so close to the front window, reduces your visibility, certainly on pitch dark roads. You'd be amazed how well you can see on a pitch dark road, if all the interior light is switched off (or dimmed to a minimum), with just the running lights. No need for high beams in most cases. Big interior screens make a huge impact on this too.

nathanlied 6y ago
You don't even need them to be big, even a low budget car's infotainment touchscreen is enough. Mine has adaptive brightness, so it means that at night in a dark road it'll be at lowest brightness, with black/gray, which makes it even less visible. It's still enough to screw with my night-vision when compared to old cars I had without interior lighting save for some very dim reds on important buttons.

jliptzin 6y ago

The auto wiper on the model 3 works so well that I barely ever have to touch the manual control anyway. The thing I do use way more often is the windshield cleaner which does have a physical control. In the rare case where I need to switch the wipers to manual I have never considered it problematic even while driving.

Bedon292 6y ago
For the most part I agree. The problem I have is with light mist or road spray (not this driver's situation) where it doesn't wipe enough, because the top of the windshield where the camera is is fine, but at my eye level it is not. But I just tap the physical button occasionally and don't really tough the manual controls. The manual controls on the screen even pop open when you hit the button, so its just one tap of the screen to adjust the speed.