6 ms·

Not clear to me how breaking up the google search monopoly would lead to a lower cost per click for valuable keywords.

tyingq 6y ago
Yes, this just seems to be more providers bidding on "online therapy" keywords, since the in-person kind isn't so practical right now.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  And if I’m not mistaken, the audience is now also a lot bigger, right? Would this not imply that this evens each other out? The therapist of the article could just maintain her bid price, not?
  - tyingq 6y ago
    It's a weird market since there's only so many room for ads. Normally, you would add shelf space, Google doesn't do that.
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      Yeah but clearly the ads being bid up are worth it to someone, no? Is the issue that the limited supply is now being taken up by therapists charging more than her, i.e. those who can bear higher costs of advertising? And if so ... what exactly is the workable alternative? This is all just market forces. The cost of advertising and acquiring new business has been around for much longer than Google.
      - tssva 6y ago
        They aren't even being taken up by therapists charging more than her. They are being taken up by corporations providing online access to therapists for substantially less than she charges. The consumer is actually benefiting. She charges $250 a session. Lets say she sees 6 patients per day generating $1500 gross revenue a day. She spends $20 a day in ads which works out to around 1.3% of gross revenues spent on advertising. That is an extremely low amount spent on advertising. The US Small Business Administration recommendation for businesses with revenues less than $5 million per year is to spend 7-8% of gross revenues on marketing.
        CydeWeys 6y ago
        That's a good point and thanks for doing the numbers. Maybe she just has unrealistic expectations of how much is normal to spend on advertising? It sounds like it. She should definitely be able to afford to spend more than a platform like BetterHelp, which is making a lot less per consultation than she is.
    - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
      isn't adding shelf space analogous to adding more ads? I mean I haven't really kept track but I am always seeing complaints on HN about how many more ads there on google nowadays so they must add some shelf space.
    - gowld 6y ago
      Google Search and Maps has unlimited shelf space, and it is free.
    - stingraycharles 6y ago
      Aren’t “extra shelves” in case of Google second and third page of search results? Or is it an illusion that people actually view those pages?
      - tyingq 6y ago
        My understanding is that very few people go past the first page.
    - pradn 6y ago
      It sorta does add shelf space. The number of ads show per keyword varies. A large proportion of searches get no ads, and some get a whole pageful.
  - gowld 6y ago
    No, because the demand is same (or slightly modified by Covid), but supply is much larger because geography is not a constraint.
MattGaiser 6y ago
I don't see how either. The total number of searches would remain the same. The total payment from customers for therapy services would remain the same. It would be worth it for therapy companies to spend the same amount of money chasing those customers.
- goodside 6y ago
  Spending on therapy advertisement would go up during a nation-wide transition to online therapy because far more people are switching therapists — people who previously chose a therapist based on convenience of the office location suddenly no longer have to. There’s also likely more consumption of therapy overall because of unemployment and other COVID-related hardships.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    Yes, but neither of those are impacted by whether there is one major search engine or five.
tigerbelt 6y ago
Goal isn’t to lower cpc Goal is to offer breathing room for innovation where predatory ad approach doesn’t serve as the arbiter of information on webs
treis 6y ago
Part of the problem is that since Google is a monopoly they have little incentive to produce good organic search results. It's much better for them if you end up clicking an ad than a search result. And with a dominant position there's not much alternative for businesses or consumers. A competitive search market might force them to come up with better organic results since those are (theoretically) better than ad links. This problem is amplified by VC funded start ups. They're willing to lose billions in order to gain a dominant market share. How can little ole therapy service compete with VC funded therapy market when they don't care about making money? Eventually little ole therapy service folds and the therapists have to go work for VC funded therapy market. The long term outlook is that we get one (or a handful) of therapy platforms that are just middle men extracting value.

Yes, this just seems to be more providers bidding on "online therapy" keywords, since the in-person kind isn't so practical right now.

stingraycharles 6y ago
And if I’m not mistaken, the audience is now also a lot bigger, right? Would this not imply that this evens each other out? The therapist of the article could just maintain her bid price, not?
- tyingq 6y ago
  It's a weird market since there's only so many room for ads. Normally, you would add shelf space, Google doesn't do that.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    Yeah but clearly the ads being bid up are worth it to someone, no? Is the issue that the limited supply is now being taken up by therapists charging more than her, i.e. those who can bear higher costs of advertising? And if so ... what exactly is the workable alternative? This is all just market forces. The cost of advertising and acquiring new business has been around for much longer than Google.
    - tssva 6y ago
      They aren't even being taken up by therapists charging more than her. They are being taken up by corporations providing online access to therapists for substantially less than she charges. The consumer is actually benefiting. She charges $250 a session. Lets say she sees 6 patients per day generating $1500 gross revenue a day. She spends $20 a day in ads which works out to around 1.3% of gross revenues spent on advertising. That is an extremely low amount spent on advertising. The US Small Business Administration recommendation for businesses with revenues less than $5 million per year is to spend 7-8% of gross revenues on marketing.
      - CydeWeys 6y ago
        That's a good point and thanks for doing the numbers. Maybe she just has unrealistic expectations of how much is normal to spend on advertising? It sounds like it. She should definitely be able to afford to spend more than a platform like BetterHelp, which is making a lot less per consultation than she is.
  - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
    isn't adding shelf space analogous to adding more ads? I mean I haven't really kept track but I am always seeing complaints on HN about how many more ads there on google nowadays so they must add some shelf space.
  - gowld 6y ago
    Google Search and Maps has unlimited shelf space, and it is free.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    Aren’t “extra shelves” in case of Google second and third page of search results? Or is it an illusion that people actually view those pages?
    - tyingq 6y ago
      My understanding is that very few people go past the first page.
  - pradn 6y ago
    It sorta does add shelf space. The number of ads show per keyword varies. A large proportion of searches get no ads, and some get a whole pageful.
- gowld 6y ago
  No, because the demand is same (or slightly modified by Covid), but supply is much larger because geography is not a constraint.

MattGaiser 6y ago

I don't see how either. The total number of searches would remain the same. The total payment from customers for therapy services would remain the same. It would be worth it for therapy companies to spend the same amount of money chasing those customers.

goodside 6y ago
Spending on therapy advertisement would go up during a nation-wide transition to online therapy because far more people are switching therapists — people who previously chose a therapist based on convenience of the office location suddenly no longer have to. There’s also likely more consumption of therapy overall because of unemployment and other COVID-related hardships.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Yes, but neither of those are impacted by whether there is one major search engine or five.

tigerbelt 6y ago

Goal isn’t to lower cpc Goal is to offer breathing room for innovation where predatory ad approach doesn’t serve as the arbiter of information on webs

treis 6y ago

Part of the problem is that since Google is a monopoly they have little incentive to produce good organic search results. It's much better for them if you end up clicking an ad than a search result. And with a dominant position there's not much alternative for businesses or consumers. A competitive search market might force them to come up with better organic results since those are (theoretically) better than ad links. This problem is amplified by VC funded start ups. They're willing to lose billions in order to gain a dominant market share. How can little ole therapy service compete with VC funded therapy market when they don't care about making money? Eventually little ole therapy service folds and the therapists have to go work for VC funded therapy market. The long term outlook is that we get one (or a handful) of therapy platforms that are just middle men extracting value.