4 ms·

You cannot teach people--even people at a young age--to enjoy mathematics because mathematics is based on logic and almost everyone except for a few weirdos hat

You cannot teach people--even people at a young age--to enjoy mathematics because mathematics is based on logic and almost everyone except for a few weirdos hates logic. Mr. Spock was designed to point out how unusual people who like logic are, but as a character from a minstrel show, not as a role model....

082349872349872 6y ago
Joan Pearce and Peter Sloman of De Forest Research, Inc. were probably unusual people who like logic, having provided the science feedback for TOS. Some other people certainly found Spock to be a role model in 1968: https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/6870952/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/1486x836!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fe8%2F48%2Fa53c9754a0696b5e07fc282af2af%2Fla-1495640638-sp1m7wejsr-snap-image https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/6870952/214...
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
These design requirements in regards to Spock that you remark on - I can't really find them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Spock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Spock and though never a Trekkie I don't think this sounds like something Roddenberry would have considered.
- Konohamaru 6y ago
  Did Gene Roddenberry research biographies of logical people such as physicists, number theorists, and other "heavy researchers" (for a lack of a better word) before he wrote or specified the character? If not, then he was very ignorant of the personality type of heavy researchers. It seems that Spock and Surak were meant to be parodies of stoic philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius. The fact that Surak is listed as a "great mind" alongside Newton and Einstein in the series reflects Roddenberry's high view of stoicism, so perhaps I was too extreme in the judgment of "minstrel character," seeing that he, Surak, and T'Pau were meant to reflect his favorable judgments of Stoicism, but it is still ignorant because 1. Nobody considers the stoics to be legendary thinkers in the real world. Nobody says "Aurelius, Einstein, and Newton." 2. Heavy researchers aren't at all like Spock but he does have a resemblance to people with Aspergers 3. How heavy researchers feel emotions is not at all like stoics. Strongly externally-oriented thinkers feel emotions and see emotional events in a specific way and "like Aurellius" isn't it.
  - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
    History's finest: The Legacy of Marcus Aurelius https://theversatilegent.com/historys-finest-the-legacy-of-marcus-aurelius/ https://theversatilegent.com/historys-finest-the-legacy-of-m... periodically I do see posts from people here on HN who rate Aurelius high. He is listed in the 100 most influential philosophers of all time http://ndl.ethernet.edu.et/bitstream/123456789/36958/1/12.pdf.pdf http://ndl.ethernet.edu.et/bitstream/123456789/36958/1/12.pd... Probably nobody, except Douglas Hofstadter, says "Zeno, Einstein, and Newton" but there I can give one example of a notable thinker who might say that, so probably there are some other people in our very populous planet that say "Aurelius, Einstein, and Newton"
idclip 6y ago
I disagree. Mathematics is a tool to practice our hobbies .. see Feynman‘s biography. Rot mathematics is where it goes wrong. Meta mathematics, abstract, detached from real life, as alot of the academy with its publish pr perish thinking ... that produces pain. Existential voids filled with an exercise that does not help many to move forward optimally. saying weirdos hate logic is extremely dismissive to a lot of what I would call the human experience. The same stuff can be taught with soul and purpose If we actually show children how they can apply mathematics to improve and enhance what they’re actually doing whether it is building castles in Lego, Or designing faster toy car, A better school project volcano, etc
- irontinkerer 6y ago
  > Mathematics is a tool to practice our hobbies .. see Feynman‘s biography I think pointing to a math/physics expert's life story to defend your premise is a bit of a circular reasoning
  - idclip 6y ago
    Look at how he started, and he wasnt super human. I think youre elivating him to a place he isnt in. I honestly think you him less credit by doing so. He was one of us, which makes his feats even more impressive. Feynmann ENJOYED working on puzzles. He started with radios, and fiddled with electricity... and learned hid math as a kid from bools written for „working men“ (which i read and workd through) .. their language is not what you see in textbooks. He also invented his own notation (talking pre-uni, not physics notation hes also known for) and says he finally switched because he realized he wanted people to understand him, and partially due to conventions. He played, he didnt get taught, he explored. He learned math to pursue his passion, not vice versa
- butterthebuddha 6y ago
  > Rot mathematics is where it goes wrong. Not sure what you mean by "rot mathematics". > Meta mathematics, abstract, detached from real life, as alot of the academy with its publish pr perish thinking ... that produces pain. Some (including me) would say that the meta and abstract mathematics is most beautiful of all... > saying weirdos hate logic is extremely dismissive to a lot of what I would call the human experience. I think you misread the parent comment (although to be clear, I'm not defending it).
francasso 6y ago
Mathematics is as much logic as poetry is grammar. Sadly most people don't know that because they never get exposed to the creative/discovery side of math. Logic is just a tool to check correctness and enable communication.
- Konohamaru 6y ago
  Logic goes beyond truth tables: it's about being able to see the simplicity and symmetry in objects. That's why it comes from the word /logos/ which means "prevening order" (see Gospel of John).
domnomnom 6y ago
Not true, logic is great. It's just taught in a tortured way and mostly goes by another name.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yesenadam 6y ago
> almost everyone except for a few weirdos hates logic Well, all kinds of people seem to love Sudoku puzzles. And they seem to involve nothing but various kinds of logical reasoning, and the pleasure of achieving things with them.

082349872349872 6y ago

Joan Pearce and Peter Sloman of De Forest Research, Inc. were probably unusual people who like logic, having provided the science feedback for TOS. Some other people certainly found Spock to be a role model in 1968: https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/6870952/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1152+0+0/resize/1486x836!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fe8%2F48%2Fa53c9754a0696b5e07fc282af2af%2Fla-1495640638-sp1m7wejsr-snap-image https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/6870952/214...

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

These design requirements in regards to Spock that you remark on - I can't really find them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Spock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Spock and though never a Trekkie I don't think this sounds like something Roddenberry would have considered.

Konohamaru 6y ago
Did Gene Roddenberry research biographies of logical people such as physicists, number theorists, and other "heavy researchers" (for a lack of a better word) before he wrote or specified the character? If not, then he was very ignorant of the personality type of heavy researchers. It seems that Spock and Surak were meant to be parodies of stoic philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius. The fact that Surak is listed as a "great mind" alongside Newton and Einstein in the series reflects Roddenberry's high view of stoicism, so perhaps I was too extreme in the judgment of "minstrel character," seeing that he, Surak, and T'Pau were meant to reflect his favorable judgments of Stoicism, but it is still ignorant because 1. Nobody considers the stoics to be legendary thinkers in the real world. Nobody says "Aurelius, Einstein, and Newton." 2. Heavy researchers aren't at all like Spock but he does have a resemblance to people with Aspergers 3. How heavy researchers feel emotions is not at all like stoics. Strongly externally-oriented thinkers feel emotions and see emotional events in a specific way and "like Aurellius" isn't it.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  History's finest: The Legacy of Marcus Aurelius https://theversatilegent.com/historys-finest-the-legacy-of-marcus-aurelius/ https://theversatilegent.com/historys-finest-the-legacy-of-m... periodically I do see posts from people here on HN who rate Aurelius high. He is listed in the 100 most influential philosophers of all time http://ndl.ethernet.edu.et/bitstream/123456789/36958/1/12.pdf.pdf http://ndl.ethernet.edu.et/bitstream/123456789/36958/1/12.pd... Probably nobody, except Douglas Hofstadter, says "Zeno, Einstein, and Newton" but there I can give one example of a notable thinker who might say that, so probably there are some other people in our very populous planet that say "Aurelius, Einstein, and Newton"

idclip 6y ago

I disagree. Mathematics is a tool to practice our hobbies .. see Feynman‘s biography. Rot mathematics is where it goes wrong. Meta mathematics, abstract, detached from real life, as alot of the academy with its publish pr perish thinking ... that produces pain. Existential voids filled with an exercise that does not help many to move forward optimally. saying weirdos hate logic is extremely dismissive to a lot of what I would call the human experience. The same stuff can be taught with soul and purpose If we actually show children how they can apply mathematics to improve and enhance what they’re actually doing whether it is building castles in Lego, Or designing faster toy car, A better school project volcano, etc

irontinkerer 6y ago
> Mathematics is a tool to practice our hobbies .. see Feynman‘s biography I think pointing to a math/physics expert's life story to defend your premise is a bit of a circular reasoning
- idclip 6y ago
  Look at how he started, and he wasnt super human. I think youre elivating him to a place he isnt in. I honestly think you him less credit by doing so. He was one of us, which makes his feats even more impressive. Feynmann ENJOYED working on puzzles. He started with radios, and fiddled with electricity... and learned hid math as a kid from bools written for „working men“ (which i read and workd through) .. their language is not what you see in textbooks. He also invented his own notation (talking pre-uni, not physics notation hes also known for) and says he finally switched because he realized he wanted people to understand him, and partially due to conventions. He played, he didnt get taught, he explored. He learned math to pursue his passion, not vice versa
butterthebuddha 6y ago
> Rot mathematics is where it goes wrong. Not sure what you mean by "rot mathematics". > Meta mathematics, abstract, detached from real life, as alot of the academy with its publish pr perish thinking ... that produces pain. Some (including me) would say that the meta and abstract mathematics is most beautiful of all... > saying weirdos hate logic is extremely dismissive to a lot of what I would call the human experience. I think you misread the parent comment (although to be clear, I'm not defending it).

francasso 6y ago

Mathematics is as much logic as poetry is grammar. Sadly most people don't know that because they never get exposed to the creative/discovery side of math. Logic is just a tool to check correctness and enable communication.

Konohamaru 6y ago
Logic goes beyond truth tables: it's about being able to see the simplicity and symmetry in objects. That's why it comes from the word /logos/ which means "prevening order" (see Gospel of John).

domnomnom 6y ago

Not true, logic is great. It's just taught in a tortured way and mostly goes by another name.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

yesenadam 6y ago

> almost everyone except for a few weirdos hates logic Well, all kinds of people seem to love Sudoku puzzles. And they seem to involve nothing but various kinds of logical reasoning, and the pleasure of achieving things with them.