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Tesla touchscreen wiper controls land driver with fine after crash

98 points by tomduncalf 6y ago

mprev 6y ago
Having had a Model 3 for eight months now, the interface is something you learn to live with rather than ever feeling totally confident with. The buttons etc are designed for a car that can run the wipers etc flawlessly itself but the tech isn’t there yet.
- acwan93 6y ago
  I read somewhere that the Model 3 was intended to be fully autonomous, which was why the interface and look of the car is as spartan as it is. When the autonomous tech ended up not being there (no surprise), Tesla kept the look of the car as if the car were meant to drive itself. This is probably why CarPlay and Android Auto still aren’t integrated, among other reasons.
remote_phone 6y ago
I hate the arrogance of the Model 3 that everything should be touchscreen. It’s very dangerous to do even the simplest things while driving, like turning off the fan. You have to find the right location on the touchscreen and then hold it down for a few seconds. Trying to change the direction of the fan is basically impossible to do safely while driving. Things like those should have been physically things like knobs that people can change safely without having to look.
- schmidp 6y ago
  I guess that really depends on the user, I setup my fan position once. No need for knobs. I agree the wiper controls could be better though. Would be great if a combination of the wiper button + scroll wheel could change the interval.
- kgwgk 6y ago
  At least they didn't put the pedals and the steering wheel on the touchscreen. Yet. (By the way, we're in 2020. Weren't we supossed to get self-driving cars without pedals and steering wheels by now?)
  - mathw 6y ago
    Well it is a Tesla, you can buy it with "Full Self-Driving" so surely it doesn't actually need any pedals...
- goshx 6y ago
  Which version is your Model 3?
  - remote_phone 6y ago
    Long range AWD
    - goshx 6y ago
      You didn't know about the controls before purchasing it?
      - remote_phone 6y ago
        I didn’t realize how shitty and dangerous they were until after driving it for a while.
rsynnott 6y ago
This seems... odd, in that presumably the regulators allowed the car to be sold with essential functions dependent on the touchscreen in the first place, so it's strange to fine someone for accessing essential functions. IMO the proper solution would have been to force Tesla to have a more sensible interface in the first place...
- sokoloff 6y ago
  If I crashed my regular car as a result of excessive attention paid to my old-school two-knob radio, it seems like that should quite sensibly be evidence of a road safety violation on my part as well, IMO.
  - happytoexplain 6y ago
    But that's not an essential function. The driver must contend with the wiper interface while driving.
    - tangus 6y ago
      It's your responsibility to buy a car you can operate without causing an accident. If you can't use its wiper interface without losing control, don't buy it. The same as when people buy power cars which are difficult to drive without training and then oversteer and crash.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      I agree with your two sentences, but would add that a driver has a more fundamental must which is to correctly prioritize their attention so as to avoid causing a single-vehicle crash via distraction. Whether it's a two-knob radio, a touchscreen wiper control, swatting at a bee, or handling a sneeze is largely irrelevant as to where the most immediate responsibility for the crash lies, IMO.
      - stingraycharles 6y ago
        What if it’s impossible to see due to the rain? There is a huge difference between a radio and a wiper control. Wipers are not some optional thing you can ignore for a while, they’re essential for safe driving and should be accessible to the driver without distraction.
arusahni 6y ago
Previous discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100
kaitari 6y ago
I don't own a Tesla, but when it automatically enables the wipers, does the UI on the touchscreen "adapt" to current conditions and bring the wiper speed controls to the top level so it's one touch away? Or does the driver still have to touch through N menus to get to it at all times? If so, that's a terrible driver experience. :-(
- williesleg 6y ago
  Right on the front, 1 tap. And you can always hit the wiper button on the left stalk. It's a physical button too.
- caf 6y ago
  On the Model 3 (the car in this article), the wiper controls are on a 'card' that you can swipe across to bring up. When the wipers are activated, either automatically or manually by the stalk on the steering wheel, that also brings that 'card' to the front.
- radium3d 6y ago
  Model 3 owner -- when you press the quick wipe button on the left stock it brings up the wiper interface menu to adjust the wipe speed and the auto wipe button. It's very quick and only requires a short glance and one screen press. One way to improve it would be after the left stocks quick wipe button is pressed, let us adjust the speed with the steering wheel control wheel with a volume based auditory click to indicate it's gone up or down. Although those are used for volume and speed if cruise or autopilot is enables so it would need to only stay in wiper speed adjust for a few seconds
  - foepys 6y ago
    > requires a short glance Just as short as checking whether I got a text message?
    - radium3d 6y ago
      Shorter
marvin 6y ago
Hope this prompts them to put the windshield wiper controls on a stalk or the steering wheel. Never been comfortable with that part of the interface.
williesleg 6y ago
There's so much fake news, if it's a problem hitting the touch screen there's a button on the left stalk to run the wipers. Gotta buy more short shorts shorties!
l3_ 6y ago
That's why I hate having to deal with touch controls in cars for basic functions. I like having tactile feedback so I can control them without needing to look, or just having a glance instead of having to focus navigating through an interface. Don't get me wrong I love how smarter cars are getting but some things just shouldn't be made "smart" imo.
- zucker42 6y ago
  I don't think the main reason car companies are shifting more and more functionality to touchscreens is because of the perception that they're "smart". I think it's because touchscreens are cheaper, especially in terms of development costs, since it's easier to iterate in software than hardware. I'm not super knowledgeable about the field though, so maybe someone who's worked at a car company can help explain.
  - throwaway29102 6y ago
    Mazda is ditching touchscreens, and I doubt they’ll be the last (if they survive 2020). Safety controls aren’t something that should be subject to “move fast and break things.”
    - zucker42 6y ago
      I'm not saying the cost savings are necessarily worth it. I strongly dislike the move to touchscreen interfaces in situations where they don't make sense. I think cost savings might be a reason many car companies have chosen (IMO) a clearly worse interface, especially if you look at it from the perspective of an executive trying to decrease costs.
    - izacus 6y ago
      Sadly they kind of forgot about that in electric Mazda MX-30, which proudly adds a touchscreen for climate controls -_-
basicallydan 6y ago
I have always wondered how Tesla is allowed to sell cars where the controls are so touch-screen-heavy. It does seem far less intuitive and more distracting than the convention for many controls. I always assumed there was some rigorous usability test they’re required to undergo.
- zajd 6y ago
  Because our regulatory institutions have been gutted by endless cries of "regulation bad, corporate overlords good!". It's a nice feedback loop too because now everyone just assumes regulation in of itself is ineffective as opposed to being systematically dismantled by politicians bought and paid for by the same corporate overlords profiting off the lack of regulation.
bob1029 6y ago
Every single engineer and executive working at Tesla right now needs to grab a copy of The Design of Everyday Things and read it cover to cover before returning to work.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  Not just Tesla. Every car manufacturer. So far it's only Mazda IIRC who said they are getting rid of touch controls. Meanwhile Mercedes Benz proudly advertisers this crap: https://youtu.be/SuFE5x6fPqw https://youtu.be/SuFE5x6fPqw
  - bob1029 6y ago
    Mercedes and Audi are easily the worst offenders right now.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      No, Volkswagen is even worse. Have a look at the Mk8 golf or even the ID.3 - literally everything is a touch surface, made out of shiny black plastic. Volume controls, climate controls, "buttons" on the steering wheel are tiny touchpads.....it's truly truly awful. I've used the latest Golf recently and the fact that the only way to adjust temperature is to swipe your finger on a tiny touch surface without any feedback is just mindboggingly stupid.
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    You do see the buttons that do almost everything you'd want to do while driving on the steering wheel right? Along with a voice operated climate control, you don't need to touch the screen, ever
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      > You do see the buttons that do almost everything "Almost" is to say that no, it's not enough. Show me climate controls on the steering wheel. > Along with a voice operated climate control No. A very very small minority of people operate anything via voice control. Especially in cars where voice control is universally horrendous.
raiyu 6y ago
Touch screens are horrible for frequently used controls in cars. Any car you are in is traveling with kinetic energy, so it is likely to bounce and move around over the road surface. Without a physical button to rest your finger on it's nearly impossible to get something on the first "touch" unless you are standing still. Yes it looks cool, and yes it's fun to play with on a red light, but using any of these touchscreens even at 50 mph is nearly impossible. Made much worse if it's a sports car and has a bit of a stiffer suspension. One step forward, two steps backwards.
- catalogia 6y ago
  The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small plastic parts for all the buttons, sliders, and whatnot. However this makes me wonder: is it still cheaper when using a large expensive panel like Tesla does? And even if so, what place do such cost-cutting measures have in [ostensibly] luxury vehicles?
  - rlayton2 6y ago
    They are easier to update too with new features and buttons. The parent's point about tactile being better when driving is still valid though.
  - deelowe 6y ago
    I wonder if this is a price thing or more of a result of Tesla's development model. With a touchscreen, you can design and iterate. UX can be delayed until the latest stages of development when you already have physical designs in hand. Then again, we're probably over thinking it. I'm sure cool factor was the #1 reason for this sort of implementation.
  - cma 6y ago
    > large expensive panel like Tesla Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but is not great environmentally.
claydavisss 6y ago
If the car was approved for sale in Germany, then it was approved for sale with the control system as delivered. If the courts have an issue with the regulatory bodies that approved having a Tesla on the road, they should go talk to them.
jmacd 6y ago
Tesla's automatic wipers are bizarrely bad. At one point Elon touted a new neural net upload that was going to make them better, but they actually got worse. My Dodge truck has much better automatic wiper control than my Tesla.
- foepys 6y ago
  That's because the Model 3 doesn't have a dedicated rain sensor but tries to detect rain with the built-in cameras.
  - jmacd 6y ago
    Oh. Dear. God. I wouldn't have guessed.
- dhosek 6y ago
  No Tesla but I have a Chrysler minivan. I've never needed to do anything with the wiper controls in the three years we've had it. Between Musk's erratic behavior and issues like these, my desire to have a Tesla has dramatically decreased.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  Automatic wipers have ALWAYS been bad. The old Nissan 200SX had a wiper sensor and it was one of the first things to fail on that car.
bluthru 6y ago
I find it inexcusable that Teslas don't have voice commands. "Tesla, slow down the wipers."
- goshx 6y ago
  Shocker: they do.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  But they do? The voice recognition is a bit sub-par IMO, but I can control the wipers by voice if I want.
acd 6y ago
I think device distraction is dangerous in traffic. The whole point is that you as a driver or cyclist need to be aware of other traffic participants. If you are distracted with a device you are not paying attention. Thus agree with the court ruling. It’s better with physical touch controls to control car functions. Consider search depth, physical device control is direct access hash table. But touch button interfaces are like searching through a list/tree so slower.
throwaway29102 6y ago
I don’t know how anyone who has ridden in a car and used a capacitive touchscreen could come to the conclusion that the two should be combined in one product. Especially for controlling safety features.
jqpabc123 6y ago
Misuse of technology --- technology that actually detracts from usability. Provide essential info and control in the simplest possible manner. If you feel the need for additional gadgetry, use voice recognition and response --- something with minimal distraction from the essential task at hand.
goshx 6y ago
This was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100
ape4 6y ago
I looked into getting a Tesla but decided against it because of the all touchscreen UX.
techntoke 6y ago
Mechanical switches stop working too. Do they not have a voice activation system as well as gesture controls?
air7 6y ago
"Tesla touchscreen wiper controls land driver with fine after crash" These headline-esque sentences are very hard to parse without context sometimes. It took me ages to figure out this one. It's a small hobby of mine.
- exclipy 6y ago
  The wiper controls the land-driver? Glad they clarified it wasn't the sea-driver. But don't worry, it's fine. It was not damaged in the crash.
crististm 6y ago
Regardless of the merits of touch control UI on cars (or their lack-of) it's a stupid idea to fine the driver in this situation. Maybe the law enforcers want to make an indirect point... If the vehicle is _road legal_ (that is it has stop lights, breaks etc) then it is assumed that it can be used legally on public road. If the touch interface would make the driver break some laws then the vehicle should _not_ be road legal in the first place.
gpcz 6y ago
From an ISO 26262 perspective, it seems like for the driving scenario of "unexpected windshield wiper speed increase", they may have set the controllability to C0 (Controllable in general) [1] when it may have needed to have been something less controllable (C1 means 99% of drivers can avoid harm in the condition, C2 means 95%, C3 means less than 90%). That probably set their risk level to something lower than it actually was. They probably need to do some tests for anything they're diverting to the touchscreen to figure out how many drivers can manage the situation within the time frame of avoiding a crash. It looks like Tesla's job postings reference ISO 26262 experience as a plus [2], but I can't get a straight answer to Tesla's adherence to it in-house. My understanding is that no government mandates its use, but lots of car companies adopt it anyway. [1] ISO 26262-3:2011(E) Table B.4 [2] https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-integrationengineerchassiscontrols-65063 https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-integrationengine...
unlog 6y ago
Theres seem to be a hardware button to turn these on and off. The solution should be simple: - Long press to turn on and off. - Press many times to change speed.
- Bedon292 6y ago
  Short press is wipe once, long press is spray cleaner to wash windshield currently. I would like to see double tap to turn on or something. Or what about tap it and then one of the scroll wheels on the steering wheel to adjust speed. Not great, but would be possible with the hardware they have.
  - unlog 6y ago
    Could also be same as I said but very long press to spray cleaner.
torpfactory 6y ago
Not sure if everyone's familiar what is actually in the Model 3/Y. - The main mode of use is 'auto' which uses as its feedback sensor the forward facing camera (I think only this location, but not 100% sure about that) located where the rear view mirror attaches to the wind screen. It covers ~75% of my driving without issue. I think there is a problem with that sensor location as the boundary layer gets compressed near the apex of the windscreen, resulting in better mass transport and a drier windscreen than the part the driver looks through. This camera location is thus a laggy indicator of rain because it tends to be one of the driest parts of the car. Personally my experience with the this feature is a good advertisement not to get full self driving yet: If you can only answer the question "Is it raining?" accurately 75% of the time with cameras, you've probably got a long way to go on FSD. - There is a physical button on the end of the left stalk. You press it to get 'wipe once'. If you need to respond quickly to a sudden burst of rain or the driver next to you goes through a big puddle, you can do that without the touchscreen. - The physical button push also brings up the wiper control on the touchscreen, which is otherwise behind one (non physical) button which is always on the screen. The touchscreen controls include manual control of wipers on/off/auto and wiper speed. - There is also voice control which seems to work fine. As with many voice control systems, you have to say a specific phrase, which presents a discovery problem: how do users learn that phrase unless they're the kind of people who search out documentation on the internet. I'd also wager many drivers haven't gotten used to the idea of voice control of car features so they're not well utilized in general. And for your consideration, my opinion: It works fine most of the time (because I just leave it in auto), but I occasionally need to tap the physical button to get an extra wipe. Sometimes when it is very lightly raining I need to manually set the speed since the feedback system doesn't seem to do a good job in that scenario. The touchscreen feels pretty accurate and responsive, so I've never had trouble hitting the button while in motion. I think Tesla should release a software update to let the user 'double tap' the physical button to force the wipers 'on-high' for the rest of the journey.
- ebg13 6y ago
  > As with many voice control systems, you have to say a specific phrase, which presents a discovery problem: how do users learn that phrase unless they're the kind of people who search out documentation on the internet. The internet? The car doesn't come with a manual? Doesn't _every_ car come with a manual?
GhostVII 6y ago
Tesla's touch screen interface is probably one of the worst interface decisions in car history. It takes two taps on your touch screen to just open a glovebox - in what way is that better than a handle, which is completely intuitive, way faster, and usable without having to look at a screen. Or their fans, where you have to use the touch screen to change their direction - why not just have a tab you can move around like every other car. In my Honda Fit, I can adjust the temperature and fan direction in about 2 seconds without taking my eyes off the road. In a Tesla it requires me to look at a screen and tap like 10 times to navigate the menus. Touch screens are a much worse interface that physical interfaces in many cases, especially when you are driving. I don't understand why you would take away almost all feedback and speed from some control, and consider it progress.
t0mbstone 6y ago
The stupid touch screen controls on the Tesla are the one and only reason why I refuse to buy one (and I have test driven a number of them and love everything else about them).

98 points by tomduncalf 6y ago

Having had a Model 3 for eight months now, the interface is something you learn to live with rather than ever feeling totally confident with. The buttons etc are designed for a car that can run the wipers etc flawlessly itself but the tech isn’t there yet.

acwan93 6y ago
I read somewhere that the Model 3 was intended to be fully autonomous, which was why the interface and look of the car is as spartan as it is. When the autonomous tech ended up not being there (no surprise), Tesla kept the look of the car as if the car were meant to drive itself. This is probably why CarPlay and Android Auto still aren’t integrated, among other reasons.

remote_phone 6y ago

I hate the arrogance of the Model 3 that everything should be touchscreen. It’s very dangerous to do even the simplest things while driving, like turning off the fan. You have to find the right location on the touchscreen and then hold it down for a few seconds. Trying to change the direction of the fan is basically impossible to do safely while driving. Things like those should have been physically things like knobs that people can change safely without having to look.

schmidp 6y ago
I guess that really depends on the user, I setup my fan position once. No need for knobs. I agree the wiper controls could be better though. Would be great if a combination of the wiper button + scroll wheel could change the interval.
kgwgk 6y ago
At least they didn't put the pedals and the steering wheel on the touchscreen. Yet. (By the way, we're in 2020. Weren't we supossed to get self-driving cars without pedals and steering wheels by now?)
- mathw 6y ago
  Well it is a Tesla, you can buy it with "Full Self-Driving" so surely it doesn't actually need any pedals...
goshx 6y ago
Which version is your Model 3?
- remote_phone 6y ago
  Long range AWD
  - goshx 6y ago
    You didn't know about the controls before purchasing it?
    - remote_phone 6y ago
      I didn’t realize how shitty and dangerous they were until after driving it for a while.

rsynnott 6y ago

This seems... odd, in that presumably the regulators allowed the car to be sold with essential functions dependent on the touchscreen in the first place, so it's strange to fine someone for accessing essential functions. IMO the proper solution would have been to force Tesla to have a more sensible interface in the first place...

sokoloff 6y ago
If I crashed my regular car as a result of excessive attention paid to my old-school two-knob radio, it seems like that should quite sensibly be evidence of a road safety violation on my part as well, IMO.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  But that's not an essential function. The driver must contend with the wiper interface while driving.
  - tangus 6y ago
    It's your responsibility to buy a car you can operate without causing an accident. If you can't use its wiper interface without losing control, don't buy it. The same as when people buy power cars which are difficult to drive without training and then oversteer and crash.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I agree with your two sentences, but would add that a driver has a more fundamental must which is to correctly prioritize their attention so as to avoid causing a single-vehicle crash via distraction. Whether it's a two-knob radio, a touchscreen wiper control, swatting at a bee, or handling a sneeze is largely irrelevant as to where the most immediate responsibility for the crash lies, IMO.
    - stingraycharles 6y ago
      What if it’s impossible to see due to the rain? There is a huge difference between a radio and a wiper control. Wipers are not some optional thing you can ignore for a while, they’re essential for safe driving and should be accessible to the driver without distraction.

arusahni 6y ago

Previous discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100

kaitari 6y ago

I don't own a Tesla, but when it automatically enables the wipers, does the UI on the touchscreen "adapt" to current conditions and bring the wiper speed controls to the top level so it's one touch away? Or does the driver still have to touch through N menus to get to it at all times? If so, that's a terrible driver experience. :-(

williesleg 6y ago
Right on the front, 1 tap. And you can always hit the wiper button on the left stalk. It's a physical button too.
caf 6y ago
On the Model 3 (the car in this article), the wiper controls are on a 'card' that you can swipe across to bring up. When the wipers are activated, either automatically or manually by the stalk on the steering wheel, that also brings that 'card' to the front.
radium3d 6y ago
Model 3 owner -- when you press the quick wipe button on the left stock it brings up the wiper interface menu to adjust the wipe speed and the auto wipe button. It's very quick and only requires a short glance and one screen press. One way to improve it would be after the left stocks quick wipe button is pressed, let us adjust the speed with the steering wheel control wheel with a volume based auditory click to indicate it's gone up or down. Although those are used for volume and speed if cruise or autopilot is enables so it would need to only stay in wiper speed adjust for a few seconds
- foepys 6y ago
  > requires a short glance Just as short as checking whether I got a text message?
  - radium3d 6y ago
    Shorter

marvin 6y ago

Hope this prompts them to put the windshield wiper controls on a stalk or the steering wheel. Never been comfortable with that part of the interface.

williesleg 6y ago

There's so much fake news, if it's a problem hitting the touch screen there's a button on the left stalk to run the wipers. Gotta buy more short shorts shorties!

l3_ 6y ago

That's why I hate having to deal with touch controls in cars for basic functions. I like having tactile feedback so I can control them without needing to look, or just having a glance instead of having to focus navigating through an interface. Don't get me wrong I love how smarter cars are getting but some things just shouldn't be made "smart" imo.

zucker42 6y ago
I don't think the main reason car companies are shifting more and more functionality to touchscreens is because of the perception that they're "smart". I think it's because touchscreens are cheaper, especially in terms of development costs, since it's easier to iterate in software than hardware. I'm not super knowledgeable about the field though, so maybe someone who's worked at a car company can help explain.
- throwaway29102 6y ago
  Mazda is ditching touchscreens, and I doubt they’ll be the last (if they survive 2020). Safety controls aren’t something that should be subject to “move fast and break things.”
  - zucker42 6y ago
    I'm not saying the cost savings are necessarily worth it. I strongly dislike the move to touchscreen interfaces in situations where they don't make sense. I think cost savings might be a reason many car companies have chosen (IMO) a clearly worse interface, especially if you look at it from the perspective of an executive trying to decrease costs.
  - izacus 6y ago
    Sadly they kind of forgot about that in electric Mazda MX-30, which proudly adds a touchscreen for climate controls -_-

basicallydan 6y ago

I have always wondered how Tesla is allowed to sell cars where the controls are so touch-screen-heavy. It does seem far less intuitive and more distracting than the convention for many controls. I always assumed there was some rigorous usability test they’re required to undergo.

zajd 6y ago
Because our regulatory institutions have been gutted by endless cries of "regulation bad, corporate overlords good!". It's a nice feedback loop too because now everyone just assumes regulation in of itself is ineffective as opposed to being systematically dismantled by politicians bought and paid for by the same corporate overlords profiting off the lack of regulation.

bob1029 6y ago

Every single engineer and executive working at Tesla right now needs to grab a copy of The Design of Everyday Things and read it cover to cover before returning to work.

dmitriid 6y ago
Not just Tesla. Every car manufacturer. So far it's only Mazda IIRC who said they are getting rid of touch controls. Meanwhile Mercedes Benz proudly advertisers this crap: https://youtu.be/SuFE5x6fPqw https://youtu.be/SuFE5x6fPqw
- bob1029 6y ago
  Mercedes and Audi are easily the worst offenders right now.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    No, Volkswagen is even worse. Have a look at the Mk8 golf or even the ID.3 - literally everything is a touch surface, made out of shiny black plastic. Volume controls, climate controls, "buttons" on the steering wheel are tiny touchpads.....it's truly truly awful. I've used the latest Golf recently and the fact that the only way to adjust temperature is to swipe your finger on a tiny touch surface without any feedback is just mindboggingly stupid.
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  You do see the buttons that do almost everything you'd want to do while driving on the steering wheel right? Along with a voice operated climate control, you don't need to touch the screen, ever
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > You do see the buttons that do almost everything "Almost" is to say that no, it's not enough. Show me climate controls on the steering wheel. > Along with a voice operated climate control No. A very very small minority of people operate anything via voice control. Especially in cars where voice control is universally horrendous.

raiyu 6y ago

Touch screens are horrible for frequently used controls in cars. Any car you are in is traveling with kinetic energy, so it is likely to bounce and move around over the road surface. Without a physical button to rest your finger on it's nearly impossible to get something on the first "touch" unless you are standing still. Yes it looks cool, and yes it's fun to play with on a red light, but using any of these touchscreens even at 50 mph is nearly impossible. Made much worse if it's a sports car and has a bit of a stiffer suspension. One step forward, two steps backwards.

catalogia 6y ago
The 'excuse' I've heard is that cheap touch screens are cheaper for manufacturers than the old style of dashboard that had 10k little small plastic parts for all the buttons, sliders, and whatnot. However this makes me wonder: is it still cheaper when using a large expensive panel like Tesla does? And even if so, what place do such cost-cutting measures have in [ostensibly] luxury vehicles?
- rlayton2 6y ago
  They are easier to update too with new features and buttons. The parent's point about tactile being better when driving is still valid though.
- deelowe 6y ago
  I wonder if this is a price thing or more of a result of Tesla's development model. With a touchscreen, you can design and iterate. UX can be delayed until the latest stages of development when you already have physical designs in hand. Then again, we're probably over thinking it. I'm sure cool factor was the #1 reason for this sort of implementation.
- cma 6y ago
  > large expensive panel like Tesla Tesla used non automotive-grade panels to keep costs really low. They started delaminating and the solution was to have everyone's cars run the air conditioner even when the car is unoccupied, causing a big negative impact on effective mileage in the city, but it actually got great response from fans with slick marketing around it. It saved Tesla a lot of money in recalls, but is not great environmentally.

claydavisss 6y ago

If the car was approved for sale in Germany, then it was approved for sale with the control system as delivered. If the courts have an issue with the regulatory bodies that approved having a Tesla on the road, they should go talk to them.

jmacd 6y ago

Tesla's automatic wipers are bizarrely bad. At one point Elon touted a new neural net upload that was going to make them better, but they actually got worse. My Dodge truck has much better automatic wiper control than my Tesla.

foepys 6y ago
That's because the Model 3 doesn't have a dedicated rain sensor but tries to detect rain with the built-in cameras.
- jmacd 6y ago
  Oh. Dear. God. I wouldn't have guessed.
dhosek 6y ago
No Tesla but I have a Chrysler minivan. I've never needed to do anything with the wiper controls in the three years we've had it. Between Musk's erratic behavior and issues like these, my desire to have a Tesla has dramatically decreased.
djsumdog 6y ago
Automatic wipers have ALWAYS been bad. The old Nissan 200SX had a wiper sensor and it was one of the first things to fail on that car.

bluthru 6y ago

I find it inexcusable that Teslas don't have voice commands. "Tesla, slow down the wipers."

goshx 6y ago
Shocker: they do.
rootusrootus 6y ago
But they do? The voice recognition is a bit sub-par IMO, but I can control the wipers by voice if I want.

acd 6y ago

I think device distraction is dangerous in traffic. The whole point is that you as a driver or cyclist need to be aware of other traffic participants. If you are distracted with a device you are not paying attention. Thus agree with the court ruling. It’s better with physical touch controls to control car functions. Consider search depth, physical device control is direct access hash table. But touch button interfaces are like searching through a list/tree so slower.

throwaway29102 6y ago

I don’t know how anyone who has ridden in a car and used a capacitive touchscreen could come to the conclusion that the two should be combined in one product. Especially for controlling safety features.

jqpabc123 6y ago

Misuse of technology --- technology that actually detracts from usability. Provide essential info and control in the simplest possible manner. If you feel the need for additional gadgetry, use voice recognition and response --- something with minimal distraction from the essential task at hand.

goshx 6y ago

This was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24025100

ape4 6y ago

I looked into getting a Tesla but decided against it because of the all touchscreen UX.

techntoke 6y ago

Mechanical switches stop working too. Do they not have a voice activation system as well as gesture controls?

air7 6y ago

"Tesla touchscreen wiper controls land driver with fine after crash" These headline-esque sentences are very hard to parse without context sometimes. It took me ages to figure out this one. It's a small hobby of mine.

exclipy 6y ago
The wiper controls the land-driver? Glad they clarified it wasn't the sea-driver. But don't worry, it's fine. It was not damaged in the crash.

crististm 6y ago

Regardless of the merits of touch control UI on cars (or their lack-of) it's a stupid idea to fine the driver in this situation. Maybe the law enforcers want to make an indirect point... If the vehicle is _road legal_ (that is it has stop lights, breaks etc) then it is assumed that it can be used legally on public road. If the touch interface would make the driver break some laws then the vehicle should _not_ be road legal in the first place.

gpcz 6y ago

From an ISO 26262 perspective, it seems like for the driving scenario of "unexpected windshield wiper speed increase", they may have set the controllability to C0 (Controllable in general) [1] when it may have needed to have been something less controllable (C1 means 99% of drivers can avoid harm in the condition, C2 means 95%, C3 means less than 90%). That probably set their risk level to something lower than it actually was. They probably need to do some tests for anything they're diverting to the touchscreen to figure out how many drivers can manage the situation within the time frame of avoiding a crash. It looks like Tesla's job postings reference ISO 26262 experience as a plus [2], but I can't get a straight answer to Tesla's adherence to it in-house. My understanding is that no government mandates its use, but lots of car companies adopt it anyway. [1] ISO 26262-3:2011(E) Table B.4 [2] https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-integrationengineerchassiscontrols-65063 https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-integrationengine...

unlog 6y ago

Theres seem to be a hardware button to turn these on and off. The solution should be simple: - Long press to turn on and off. - Press many times to change speed.

Bedon292 6y ago
Short press is wipe once, long press is spray cleaner to wash windshield currently. I would like to see double tap to turn on or something. Or what about tap it and then one of the scroll wheels on the steering wheel to adjust speed. Not great, but would be possible with the hardware they have.
- unlog 6y ago
  Could also be same as I said but very long press to spray cleaner.

torpfactory 6y ago

Not sure if everyone's familiar what is actually in the Model 3/Y. - The main mode of use is 'auto' which uses as its feedback sensor the forward facing camera (I think only this location, but not 100% sure about that) located where the rear view mirror attaches to the wind screen. It covers ~75% of my driving without issue. I think there is a problem with that sensor location as the boundary layer gets compressed near the apex of the windscreen, resulting in better mass transport and a drier windscreen than the part the driver looks through. This camera location is thus a laggy indicator of rain because it tends to be one of the driest parts of the car. Personally my experience with the this feature is a good advertisement not to get full self driving yet: If you can only answer the question "Is it raining?" accurately 75% of the time with cameras, you've probably got a long way to go on FSD. - There is a physical button on the end of the left stalk. You press it to get 'wipe once'. If you need to respond quickly to a sudden burst of rain or the driver next to you goes through a big puddle, you can do that without the touchscreen. - The physical button push also brings up the wiper control on the touchscreen, which is otherwise behind one (non physical) button which is always on the screen. The touchscreen controls include manual control of wipers on/off/auto and wiper speed. - There is also voice control which seems to work fine. As with many voice control systems, you have to say a specific phrase, which presents a discovery problem: how do users learn that phrase unless they're the kind of people who search out documentation on the internet. I'd also wager many drivers haven't gotten used to the idea of voice control of car features so they're not well utilized in general. And for your consideration, my opinion: It works fine most of the time (because I just leave it in auto), but I occasionally need to tap the physical button to get an extra wipe. Sometimes when it is very lightly raining I need to manually set the speed since the feedback system doesn't seem to do a good job in that scenario. The touchscreen feels pretty accurate and responsive, so I've never had trouble hitting the button while in motion. I think Tesla should release a software update to let the user 'double tap' the physical button to force the wipers 'on-high' for the rest of the journey.

ebg13 6y ago
> As with many voice control systems, you have to say a specific phrase, which presents a discovery problem: how do users learn that phrase unless they're the kind of people who search out documentation on the internet. The internet? The car doesn't come with a manual? Doesn't _every_ car come with a manual?

GhostVII 6y ago

Tesla's touch screen interface is probably one of the worst interface decisions in car history. It takes two taps on your touch screen to just open a glovebox - in what way is that better than a handle, which is completely intuitive, way faster, and usable without having to look at a screen. Or their fans, where you have to use the touch screen to change their direction - why not just have a tab you can move around like every other car. In my Honda Fit, I can adjust the temperature and fan direction in about 2 seconds without taking my eyes off the road. In a Tesla it requires me to look at a screen and tap like 10 times to navigate the menus. Touch screens are a much worse interface that physical interfaces in many cases, especially when you are driving. I don't understand why you would take away almost all feedback and speed from some control, and consider it progress.

t0mbstone 6y ago

The stupid touch screen controls on the Tesla are the one and only reason why I refuse to buy one (and I have test driven a number of them and love everything else about them).