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As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this

by bArray 6y ago

As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds. To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are not condemning people based on race. As for actions taken against China and masquerading behind human-rights to justify them, I think it's okay to temporary align ourselves with those whose actions align with our ideology, even if the motivation is different. Life is about compromise and we're going to find very few allies if we will only work with people perfectly aligned with our own motivations.

pdr2020 6y ago
This is one of the most cleanly straightforward and mature posts I've read on HN in awhile. And quite practical too, particularly that last portion. Also, agreed.
Synaesthesia 6y ago
We ought to condemn China for it's human rights abuses. We should also condemn Israel for similar abuses, which it's doing out in the public. Keeping 2 million people in a virtual concentration camp in Gaza, with no hope.
DarthGhandi 6y ago
> To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people What would you say if the people widely supported it? Do you have evidence otherwise? Most mainlanders don't seem to care at all, that's pretty common knowledge and not some fear of speaking out issue. There's plenty of online forums where they anonymously express themselves and widely mock and criticise the government yet you won't find many being about Xinjiang province other than what the West is reporting on it. Have you spent much time on the Chinese internet? So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people who support this, do you consider them the enemy too? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/why-many-in-china-support-beijings-xinjiang-and-hongkong-policy/11749148 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/why-many-in-china-sup...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bArray 6y ago
  > So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people > who support this, do you consider them the enemy too? It's a tough one. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda out there in China and until people have a balanced idea of what the various truths are, I don't know if it can be held against them. They are likely told that they are all extremists from the only authoritative source they have available to them, you can understand why they hold the views they hold (even if we would agree they are not nice views to hold). That said, there are people out there that hold extreme views I don't agree with (in many different social circles/cultures). As long as they don't act on these ideas and are able to be productive members of society, then it's enough to agree to disagree. In general we need a better approach towards radicalization, and for that in my opinion we should try to solve problems internally first. Western society for example has extreme far-right and extreme far-left minorities, it's not yet clear how we step these people back from the edge (i.e. violence).
- saeranv 6y ago
  This isn't unique to Chinese mainlanders. If you look at other countries: U.S, Sri Lanka, Israel, Brazil, France etc., you're going to find a significant portion of the population that seems to support far-right populism based on ethnic nationalism. Look at Trump, who is currently attempting to push an anti-China narrative in the US, but still gave Xi Jinping the green light to build camps for the Uighurs, and said it was "exactly the right thing to do." [1] Should we judge them? Are they our enemy? I don't know. But this seems to be a systematic bias that pervades humanity in general. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833
  - lenkite 6y ago
    Please do note that is a John Bolton claim with no independent confirmation and denied by Trump. And no single nation - not even the US - has any power to give a "green" or "red" light to China currently. The only way any pressure would work is with a league of nations applying sanctions.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pg_1234 6y ago
* * * But can you trust the source. It is after all a model, who's entire career revolves around faking appearances for the camera. A determined news team and a suitably sympathetic model could have produced a similar report on any story. Perhaps find a more credible source to support.
- bArray 6y ago
  > But can you trust the source. His family haven't heard from him in 5 months, it seems quite extreme for a small amount of popularity. > Perhaps find a more credible source to support. Just to name a few: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inmP0LvZEhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inmP0LvZEhY [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c&feature=youtu.be [3] https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145 https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145 [4] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/world/asia/china-xinjiang-uighur-court.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/world/asia/china-xinjiang...
  - pg_1234 6y ago
    Exactly ... so why DIDN'T you post reports of large scale verifiable oppression instead of a posing model? I mean, lets face it, for whatever reason you chose the news report that was about as credible as Trump ...
    - bArray 6y ago
      > why DIDN'T you post reports of large scale verifiable > oppression instead of a posing model? I'm not OP, I didn't post that particular link, I just commented here on the subject. > for whatever reason you chose the news report that was > about as credible as Trump I don't see why you are comparing the social media model to Trump.

by bArray 6y ago

pdr2020 6y ago

This is one of the most cleanly straightforward and mature posts I've read on HN in awhile. And quite practical too, particularly that last portion. Also, agreed.

Synaesthesia 6y ago

We ought to condemn China for it's human rights abuses. We should also condemn Israel for similar abuses, which it's doing out in the public. Keeping 2 million people in a virtual concentration camp in Gaza, with no hope.

DarthGhandi 6y ago

> To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people What would you say if the people widely supported it? Do you have evidence otherwise? Most mainlanders don't seem to care at all, that's pretty common knowledge and not some fear of speaking out issue. There's plenty of online forums where they anonymously express themselves and widely mock and criticise the government yet you won't find many being about Xinjiang province other than what the West is reporting on it. Have you spent much time on the Chinese internet? So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people who support this, do you consider them the enemy too? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/why-many-in-china-support-beijings-xinjiang-and-hongkong-policy/11749148 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-30/why-many-in-china-sup...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bArray 6y ago
> So to go back to my question, if it's actually the people > who support this, do you consider them the enemy too? It's a tough one. There's a lot of misinformation and propaganda out there in China and until people have a balanced idea of what the various truths are, I don't know if it can be held against them. They are likely told that they are all extremists from the only authoritative source they have available to them, you can understand why they hold the views they hold (even if we would agree they are not nice views to hold). That said, there are people out there that hold extreme views I don't agree with (in many different social circles/cultures). As long as they don't act on these ideas and are able to be productive members of society, then it's enough to agree to disagree. In general we need a better approach towards radicalization, and for that in my opinion we should try to solve problems internally first. Western society for example has extreme far-right and extreme far-left minorities, it's not yet clear how we step these people back from the edge (i.e. violence).
saeranv 6y ago
This isn't unique to Chinese mainlanders. If you look at other countries: U.S, Sri Lanka, Israel, Brazil, France etc., you're going to find a significant portion of the population that seems to support far-right populism based on ethnic nationalism. Look at Trump, who is currently attempting to push an anti-China narrative in the US, but still gave Xi Jinping the green light to build camps for the Uighurs, and said it was "exactly the right thing to do." [1] Should we judge them? Are they our enemy? I don't know. But this seems to be a systematic bias that pervades humanity in general. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833
- lenkite 6y ago
  Please do note that is a John Bolton claim with no independent confirmation and denied by Trump. And no single nation - not even the US - has any power to give a "green" or "red" light to China currently. The only way any pressure would work is with a league of nations applying sanctions.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pg_1234 6y ago

* * * But can you trust the source. It is after all a model, who's entire career revolves around faking appearances for the camera. A determined news team and a suitably sympathetic model could have produced a similar report on any story. Perhaps find a more credible source to support.

bArray 6y ago
> But can you trust the source. His family haven't heard from him in 5 months, it seems quite extreme for a small amount of popularity. > Perhaps find a more credible source to support. Just to name a few: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inmP0LvZEhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inmP0LvZEhY [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmId2ZP3h0c&feature=youtu.be [3] https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145 https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1284784810200838145 [4] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/world/asia/china-xinjiang-uighur-court.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/world/asia/china-xinjiang...
- pg_1234 6y ago
  Exactly ... so why DIDN'T you post reports of large scale verifiable oppression instead of a posing model? I mean, lets face it, for whatever reason you chose the news report that was about as credible as Trump ...
  - bArray 6y ago
    > why DIDN'T you post reports of large scale verifiable > oppression instead of a posing model? I'm not OP, I didn't post that particular link, I just commented here on the subject. > for whatever reason you chose the news report that was > about as credible as Trump I don't see why you are comparing the social media model to Trump.