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This is the first I’ve ever heard of “Apple Fellows”. According to Wikipedia [0], > To recognize the best of its employees, Apple created the Apple Fellows pro

This is the first I’ve ever heard of “Apple Fellows”. According to Wikipedia [0], > To recognize the best of its employees, Apple created the Apple Fellows program which awards individuals who make extraordinary technical or leadership contributions to personal computing while at the company. The Apple Fellowship has so far been awarded to individuals including Bill Atkinson, Steve Capps, Rod Holt, Alan Kay, Guy Kawasaki, Al Alcorn, Don Norman, Rich Page, and Steve Wozniak. I wonder what qualifies “extraordinary”. For example, Chris Lattner, creator of Swift and LLVM, seems to have fit that adjective as well as anyone and yet his name is absent from this list. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Corporate_affairs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Corporate_affairs

kortilla 6y ago
Many of the major tech companies have these exalted “fellow” ranks, both new and old (IBM, Google, Cisco, etc). From the internal docs I’ve read about the process to get there, you have to both make great contributions to the field as well as be important to the right people at the company.
- georgespencer 6y ago
  I think it was Sun who pioneered fellowships as a way of defusing the tension between the desire for higher remuneration in talented engineers + the fact that they are often best suited to staying in an individual contributor role which doesn't enable them to receive it. Many engineers get promoted out of their zone of genius and have to spend time managing others and doing all sorts of other things unrelated to the talent which made them famous.
  - dreamcompiler 6y ago
    If Sun did it they copied it from Bell Labs, who had a technical staff ladder and "Fellows" before Silicon Valley even existed.
    - p_l 6y ago
      IBM Fellow program is probably the oldest, initiated in 1962 and with first appointments in 1963. Reading the list of IBM Fellows one quickly notices some well known names that some people might not even recognize as IBMers :)
      - neilparikh 6y ago
        > notices some well known names that some people might not even recognize as IBMers Looking through the list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Fellow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Fellow), some random names I recognize: Frances E. Allen, Gene Amdahl, John Backus, Kenneth E. Iverson, and Benoît Mandelbrot (!). Pretty neat to see how one company was the hub for so many skilled people in the past (similar to Bell Labs and Xerox PARC). I wonder what that hub is today. Google or MSR?
    - georgespencer 6y ago
      Interesting! Thank you for correcting me.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    You are describing Principal Engineers. Fellows are retired people who don't have to leave.
    - als0 6y ago
      > Fellows are retired people who don't have to leave. This is false. Retired people can be fellows but you do not have to be retired. Some Fellows at tech companies are quite young because they were lucky to invent or spearhead famous technology that changed the fortune of the company.
saagarjha 6y ago
Some members of the Macintosh team were awarded fellowship. The list you linked to is not complete, of course, here's someone that wasn't on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Page
ponker 6y ago
The "fellow" title is used to give a person a lot more money and recognition when the person can't or doesn't want to be promoted into management/senior management. Chris Lattner ran Developer Tools at Apple so he didn't need to be Fellow.
- pak9rabid 6y ago
  And if you've ever had to use Xcode for any meaningful amount of time, you'd know why he's not on that list.
  - mbreese 6y ago
    Xcode has been this way for a long time before Lattner got there.
    - pak9rabid 6y ago
      Fair enough.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Solstinox 6y ago
Guess Scott Forstall did not make extraordinary technical OR leadership contributions to personal computing while at the company. Bummer.
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  I was gonna make exactly this point. I know Forstall got forced out by management, but don't we have him to thank for iMessage's architecture? Before Signal, iMessage was pretty much the only secure messaging system readily available to consumers. And more broadly Forstall had a huge role in making the Apple we know today.
  - Solstinox 6y ago
    The nature of lofty awards, fellowships, and titles is political, social, and if the former allow, merit-based.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      So much this. You can be the best in the world but should you land on some higher-up's bad side good luck making the cut.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    Oh come on, 'the only secure messaging system'. Xmpp was around for ages, it is decentralised and had OTR encryption since maybe 2001
    - sillysaurusx 6y ago
      Opt-in OTR encryption. Kind of a big difference.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        When you control your own server you kinda don't really need end to end encryption. It only enhances security when you don't trust the entity delivering your messages. It also degrades UX considerably: if the server does not know the contents of your message, it can't do server side archive search, you can't sync devices easily, etc.
deleted 6y ago
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doomlaser 6y ago
Bill Atkinson deserves it. He almost singlehandedly wrote the original Macintosh graphics API, QuickDraw, and also created MacPaint, which defined the UI/UX of the graphical pixel editor. Photoshop is its clear descendant. The Mac graphics API was interesting, because it was all done in software, as opposed to platforms like the Amiga which relied on graphics hardware. Personally, I think relying on graphics hardware acceleration would have been smarter, as every platform this does now, but it was certainly a bold choice for the Mac. Atkinson also created HyperCard, which could have been the first web browser had Apple managed it better — Tim Berners Lee references it in his original web proposal document. It would be interesting to know how many stock options an Apple Fellow receives, and whether it is a one-time award, or continuing.
- Aloha 6y ago
  Doing it in software allowed the original MacOS to be much more extensible and live on far longer than would have otherwise been expected.
  - doomlaser 6y ago
    To that point, QuickDraw is still shipping in MacOS although it's officially deprecated. Pretty impressive for an API that began life in 1979. I will dock it for never supporting more than a 1-bit transparency mask, but Atkinson had left Apple before that became important. I think he quit around the time Jobs was first fired. He made HyperCard on his own and licensed it to Apple for cash, though he stipulated that they had to release it for free. Unfortunately, HyperCard's biggest legacy is only Myst, and the Tim Berners Lee shout-out.
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      HyperCard has a much bigger legacy than Myst: it inspired how Web browsers work, including the overall navigation look and feel, JavaScript, even the hand pointer! It's one of those super influential things that most people don't know about.
      - 6y ago
agloeregrets 6y ago
Chris Lattner clearly fits that standard...but then left for the competition. ;)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
emdowling 6y ago
The key criteria is loyalty. Lattner left for the competition before Swift was ABI stable and mature. He didn’t see it through. If he had still been around now, he would likely be on the list.
- cushychicken 6y ago
  Bingo. Tech output with high business impact + company loyalty = Fellowship Formula works pretty much the same way at any tech company, including the one I work at now.
- doomlaser 6y ago
  Lattner created LLVM which finally replaced gcc as the premiere compiler infrastructure across the whole industry. And he created Swift, the future high level language for the whole company. Apple desperately needed something higher level than Objective-C in the age of Javascript coders, and he delivered on that as well. But I see Apple Fellows as something for people in retirement and he's still mid-career. They can always award it to him later. The person missing from this list who I'd like to see added is Susan Kare. She defined the look of the early Mac and iPod, designing all the original bitmap fonts and icons. Hugely influential.
  - jonny_eh 6y ago
    > The person missing from this list who I'd like to see added is Susan Kare. She defined the look of the original Mac and iPod, designing its original bitmap fonts and icons. Hugely influential. Absolutely! Susan Kare explains Macintosh UI ergonomics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_q50tvbQm4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_q50tvbQm4
  - emdowling 6y ago
    Definitely agree with this. The lack of gender diversity is really glaring now that you’ve pointed out Susan Kare is missing.
    - Shebanator 6y ago
jldugger 6y ago
AFAICT, it's akin to 'Emeritus' professor: an honorary designation that allows you to keep some mild affiliation, out of convenience rather than obligation.
deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
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summerlight 6y ago
In a typical tech companies, the "Fellow" position is usually given to individual contributors who don't want to get into senior management roles but still worth to take a position equivalent to VP/SVP. Chris Lattner was a director at Apple, so probably he would be simply promoted to VP rather than given the Fellow position.

kortilla 6y ago

Many of the major tech companies have these exalted “fellow” ranks, both new and old (IBM, Google, Cisco, etc). From the internal docs I’ve read about the process to get there, you have to both make great contributions to the field as well as be important to the right people at the company.

georgespencer 6y ago
I think it was Sun who pioneered fellowships as a way of defusing the tension between the desire for higher remuneration in talented engineers + the fact that they are often best suited to staying in an individual contributor role which doesn't enable them to receive it. Many engineers get promoted out of their zone of genius and have to spend time managing others and doing all sorts of other things unrelated to the talent which made them famous.
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  If Sun did it they copied it from Bell Labs, who had a technical staff ladder and "Fellows" before Silicon Valley even existed.
  - p_l 6y ago
    IBM Fellow program is probably the oldest, initiated in 1962 and with first appointments in 1963. Reading the list of IBM Fellows one quickly notices some well known names that some people might not even recognize as IBMers :)
    - neilparikh 6y ago
      > notices some well known names that some people might not even recognize as IBMers Looking through the list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Fellow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Fellow), some random names I recognize: Frances E. Allen, Gene Amdahl, John Backus, Kenneth E. Iverson, and Benoît Mandelbrot (!). Pretty neat to see how one company was the hub for so many skilled people in the past (similar to Bell Labs and Xerox PARC). I wonder what that hub is today. Google or MSR?
  - georgespencer 6y ago
    Interesting! Thank you for correcting me.
- sukilot 6y ago
  You are describing Principal Engineers. Fellows are retired people who don't have to leave.
  - als0 6y ago
    > Fellows are retired people who don't have to leave. This is false. Retired people can be fellows but you do not have to be retired. Some Fellows at tech companies are quite young because they were lucky to invent or spearhead famous technology that changed the fortune of the company.

saagarjha 6y ago

Some members of the Macintosh team were awarded fellowship. The list you linked to is not complete, of course, here's someone that wasn't on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Page

ponker 6y ago

The "fellow" title is used to give a person a lot more money and recognition when the person can't or doesn't want to be promoted into management/senior management. Chris Lattner ran Developer Tools at Apple so he didn't need to be Fellow.

pak9rabid 6y ago
And if you've ever had to use Xcode for any meaningful amount of time, you'd know why he's not on that list.
- mbreese 6y ago
  Xcode has been this way for a long time before Lattner got there.
  - pak9rabid 6y ago
    Fair enough.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Solstinox 6y ago

Guess Scott Forstall did not make extraordinary technical OR leadership contributions to personal computing while at the company. Bummer.

__blockcipher__ 6y ago
I was gonna make exactly this point. I know Forstall got forced out by management, but don't we have him to thank for iMessage's architecture? Before Signal, iMessage was pretty much the only secure messaging system readily available to consumers. And more broadly Forstall had a huge role in making the Apple we know today.
- Solstinox 6y ago
  The nature of lofty awards, fellowships, and titles is political, social, and if the former allow, merit-based.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    So much this. You can be the best in the world but should you land on some higher-up's bad side good luck making the cut.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  Oh come on, 'the only secure messaging system'. Xmpp was around for ages, it is decentralised and had OTR encryption since maybe 2001
  - sillysaurusx 6y ago
    Opt-in OTR encryption. Kind of a big difference.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      When you control your own server you kinda don't really need end to end encryption. It only enhances security when you don't trust the entity delivering your messages. It also degrades UX considerably: if the server does not know the contents of your message, it can't do server side archive search, you can't sync devices easily, etc.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

doomlaser 6y ago

Bill Atkinson deserves it. He almost singlehandedly wrote the original Macintosh graphics API, QuickDraw, and also created MacPaint, which defined the UI/UX of the graphical pixel editor. Photoshop is its clear descendant. The Mac graphics API was interesting, because it was all done in software, as opposed to platforms like the Amiga which relied on graphics hardware. Personally, I think relying on graphics hardware acceleration would have been smarter, as every platform this does now, but it was certainly a bold choice for the Mac. Atkinson also created HyperCard, which could have been the first web browser had Apple managed it better — Tim Berners Lee references it in his original web proposal document. It would be interesting to know how many stock options an Apple Fellow receives, and whether it is a one-time award, or continuing.

Aloha 6y ago
Doing it in software allowed the original MacOS to be much more extensible and live on far longer than would have otherwise been expected.
- doomlaser 6y ago
  To that point, QuickDraw is still shipping in MacOS although it's officially deprecated. Pretty impressive for an API that began life in 1979. I will dock it for never supporting more than a 1-bit transparency mask, but Atkinson had left Apple before that became important. I think he quit around the time Jobs was first fired. He made HyperCard on his own and licensed it to Apple for cash, though he stipulated that they had to release it for free. Unfortunately, HyperCard's biggest legacy is only Myst, and the Tim Berners Lee shout-out.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    HyperCard has a much bigger legacy than Myst: it inspired how Web browsers work, including the overall navigation look and feel, JavaScript, even the hand pointer! It's one of those super influential things that most people don't know about.
    - 6y ago

agloeregrets 6y ago

Chris Lattner clearly fits that standard...but then left for the competition. ;)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

emdowling 6y ago

The key criteria is loyalty. Lattner left for the competition before Swift was ABI stable and mature. He didn’t see it through. If he had still been around now, he would likely be on the list.

cushychicken 6y ago
Bingo. Tech output with high business impact + company loyalty = Fellowship Formula works pretty much the same way at any tech company, including the one I work at now.
doomlaser 6y ago
Lattner created LLVM which finally replaced gcc as the premiere compiler infrastructure across the whole industry. And he created Swift, the future high level language for the whole company. Apple desperately needed something higher level than Objective-C in the age of Javascript coders, and he delivered on that as well. But I see Apple Fellows as something for people in retirement and he's still mid-career. They can always award it to him later. The person missing from this list who I'd like to see added is Susan Kare. She defined the look of the early Mac and iPod, designing all the original bitmap fonts and icons. Hugely influential.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  > The person missing from this list who I'd like to see added is Susan Kare. She defined the look of the original Mac and iPod, designing its original bitmap fonts and icons. Hugely influential. Absolutely! Susan Kare explains Macintosh UI ergonomics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_q50tvbQm4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_q50tvbQm4
- emdowling 6y ago
  Definitely agree with this. The lack of gender diversity is really glaring now that you’ve pointed out Susan Kare is missing.
  - Shebanator 6y ago

jldugger 6y ago

AFAICT, it's akin to 'Emeritus' professor: an honorary designation that allows you to keep some mild affiliation, out of convenience rather than obligation.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

summerlight 6y ago

In a typical tech companies, the "Fellow" position is usually given to individual contributors who don't want to get into senior management roles but still worth to take a position equivalent to VP/SVP. Chris Lattner was a director at Apple, so probably he would be simply promoted to VP rather than given the Fellow position.