7 ms·

Gaming, programming games, some embedded development using proprietary windows only tool chains, windows only CAD software etc... As you said people use comput

Gaming, programming games, some embedded development using proprietary windows only tool chains, windows only CAD software etc... As you said people use computers for different things than you.

t0astbread 6y ago
Of course Windows-only things are only on Windows. But a lot of Windows-only things have non-Windows-only alternatives.
- learc83 6y ago
  Yes but many don’t. Which is why I find it absurd for someone to say they don’t understand why someone would need to use Windows.
  - t0astbread 6y ago
    Fair point but some things you mentioned really do have non-Windows alternatives ("game programming" and "embedded development" aren't limited to Windows-only stacks. I don't know about CAD so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.) My point is, people who say their work is only doable on Windows tend to just be scared to move away from the specific tools they know.
    - ViViDboarder 6y ago
      For some it may not be true that it’s only doable but still best done. Sure there is CAD software for Linux, but nowhere near the quality of Autodesk on Windows.
      - mixmastamyk 6y ago
        There was a long post/thread yesterday on how Autodesk kills everything it touches.
    - learc83 6y ago
      >("game programming" and "embedded development" aren't limited to Windows-only stacks If you're not developing a mobile or console game, windows is 95%+ of your market. At some point your going to need to do some development/QA on windows regardless of what hoops you're willing to jump through to develop on Linux. >"embedded development" There is a plenty of proprietary windows only software for which there is no viable alternative on Linux. And there are a lot of embedded systems out there in the world running on Windows. Sure if you are a one man shop, you can choose your own stack, and Linux support is one of your top priorities, then you don't need Windows. But many people in the embedded world are on Windows whether they like it or not. >My point is, people who say their work is only doable on Windows tend to just be scared to move away from the specific tools they know. And people who say "just use X on Linux instead of Y on Windows or Z on OS X" tend to overestimate the Linux alternative because they don't use it professionally. There are many professional software tools that do not have viable alternatives on Linux, and many more for which the Windows alternative is just much better than their what's available on Linux.
    - speeder 6y ago
      I often have to deal with CAD files from various vendors (people insist in sending them in proprietary formats instead of proper interchange formats, for example "DWG" instead of DXF) And also I use Win, Linux and OSX. Windows is basically mandatory for CAD, not only a lot of CAD is not available at all outside windows, often they fail to run on Wine and whatnot, I suspect sometimes this is on purpose. And a unrelated big offender is Roblox, they consider Linux a "hacking tool" and ban you if it detects you are somehow running it on Linux, no matter what method you used.
    - MaulingMonkey 6y ago
      > "game programming" Sometimes I'm forced to use OS X as well - not just forced to use Windows - because that's the only thing the iOS toolchains work on and debug with properly. And if I'm targeting mobile, I'm targeting iOS, not just Android - because I'm getting paid too much to ignore that much of the target market. Console SDKs come in the form of windows-only tooling that tightly integrates with Visual Studio - which last I checked, attempts to verify you're using a geniuine licensed Windows installation. And the platform vendors verify what compilers you're using before they allow you to ship, to make sure you're not using ancient builds filled with codegen bugs. And of course you're firing up Windows to actually test your Windows builds for the PC market, right? Especially to root cause weird configuration, architecture, or driver specific bugs? Hell, I've helped develop a UWP app at the behest of Microsoft - they were our publisher - targeting Windows 8 before it was even released. What "non-Windows-only alternatives" do you think I had, exactly, for that? > My point is, people who say their work is only doable on Windows tend to just be scared to move away from the specific tools they know. Bullshit. Even when you have non-Windows alternatives that are compatible with the Windows alternatives, convincing IT to let you do your weird nonstandard thing, and dealing with the interop bugs for all the external people using Windows software is often a headache that will cost far more than just paying the Windows licensing fees and booting it. That's not fear, that's just practicality. People who say there are non-Windows alternatives tend to not realize just how miserable an experience that can be, on the occasions where they're actually technically right, when they're not working alone in an isolated silo with all the free time in the world. Like, sure, I could try and debug msbuild issues my coworkers are having by trying to run it via wine on linux. Or I could ship windows PC games by cross compiling to windows with clang and praying there are no OS specific bugs. OpenGL drivers on windows aren't as bad as they once were, I suppose. But I challenge you to find a single professional gamedev foolish enough to go through that pain in the ass, just to avoid firing up Windows. Surely you can find at least one?
    - zzo38computer 6y ago
      That is sometimes true, However, in many cases I find the Linux-based software is better, actually, and in many other cases, they are just as good. In some cases, it is the DOS-based software which is better. Also, some programmers who write for Windows will also ensure and advertise working on Linux too, so you can still use it even if you are on Linux, if you install Wine. (In some cases, no existing software seems suitable to me, so I write my own.) Sometimes the software is available for multiple operating systems, such as SQLite, which at least I find it better than what I have used before on Windows. I find TeX for typesetting much better than using Microsoft Word, too. And, there are more things too.
  - JadeNB 6y ago
    > Which is why I find it absurd for someone to say they don’t understand why someone would need to use Windows. I can't find anyone in the thread saying that. I see people suggesting, perhaps disingenuously or based on anecdata, that it's no big deal not to use Windows, but I don't see anyone questioning why someone would use it.
    - ppseafield 6y ago
      The comment they first replied to said > I don't understand this "have to reboot to do something windows related"
      - JadeNB 6y ago
        > The comment they first replied to said > > I don't understand this "have to reboot to do something windows related" Ah, I see. Right now that comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24051085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24051085 says: > Of course Windows-only things are only on Windows. But a lot of Windows-only things have non-Windows-only alternatives. , which seems less inflammatory. EDIT: Oh, wait, I see—I think you're going a couple more levels up, to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050905 : > I've used linux on my desktop for 20 years, I don't understand this "have to reboot to do something windows related", I guess I just use computers for very different things to you. I read this more charitably, not as saying "why would someone need to use Windows?" but more "I don't need to use Windows, so I don't regard it as a universal need". (That, in turn, came from mmm_grayons's post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050677 : > And use what instead? I generally use linux on my desktop but have to reboot fairly often to do something windows-related. Libreoffice botches document formatting every time I use it on something above "hello, world." Lots of stuff still only works on windows, though wine compatibility is getting better. which I read, again perhaps unfairly, as suggesting that it is unrealistic for people to consider a computer workflow that doesn't involve Windows.) Perhaps still more charity (or clarity) would have been appropriate, but the explicit acknowledgement that there are different purposes for which different people need computers seems to me to defuse much of what one might perceive as hostility or dismissiveness there.
- sergeykish 6y ago
  Please, that's disingenuous. I've switched to Linux 12 years ago, it requires sacrifices. I had to switch profession from Symbian Developer to Web Developer, desktop experience was not great, Wine has not helped. I've ended with light DM, shell, browser and vim. And it was worth it. There are so many wonderful aspects, the most relevant here is "for open source community I am not a product". It is blessing and curse - a lot of applications are not that polished, but they are sincere, they do what their authors want for themselves.
iso1631 6y ago
Been distracted today as I've been playing civ6 far too much, when I should be monitoring these missing arps in a cisco switch. So CAD then.

Gaming, programming games, some embedded development using proprietary windows only tool chains, windows only CAD software etc... As you said people use computers for different things than you.

t0astbread 6y ago

Of course Windows-only things are only on Windows. But a lot of Windows-only things have non-Windows-only alternatives.

learc83 6y ago
Yes but many don’t. Which is why I find it absurd for someone to say they don’t understand why someone would need to use Windows.
- t0astbread 6y ago
  Fair point but some things you mentioned really do have non-Windows alternatives ("game programming" and "embedded development" aren't limited to Windows-only stacks. I don't know about CAD so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.) My point is, people who say their work is only doable on Windows tend to just be scared to move away from the specific tools they know.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    For some it may not be true that it’s only doable but still best done. Sure there is CAD software for Linux, but nowhere near the quality of Autodesk on Windows.
    - mixmastamyk 6y ago
      There was a long post/thread yesterday on how Autodesk kills everything it touches.
  - learc83 6y ago
    >("game programming" and "embedded development" aren't limited to Windows-only stacks If you're not developing a mobile or console game, windows is 95%+ of your market. At some point your going to need to do some development/QA on windows regardless of what hoops you're willing to jump through to develop on Linux. >"embedded development" There is a plenty of proprietary windows only software for which there is no viable alternative on Linux. And there are a lot of embedded systems out there in the world running on Windows. Sure if you are a one man shop, you can choose your own stack, and Linux support is one of your top priorities, then you don't need Windows. But many people in the embedded world are on Windows whether they like it or not. >My point is, people who say their work is only doable on Windows tend to just be scared to move away from the specific tools they know. And people who say "just use X on Linux instead of Y on Windows or Z on OS X" tend to overestimate the Linux alternative because they don't use it professionally. There are many professional software tools that do not have viable alternatives on Linux, and many more for which the Windows alternative is just much better than their what's available on Linux.
  - speeder 6y ago
    I often have to deal with CAD files from various vendors (people insist in sending them in proprietary formats instead of proper interchange formats, for example "DWG" instead of DXF) And also I use Win, Linux and OSX. Windows is basically mandatory for CAD, not only a lot of CAD is not available at all outside windows, often they fail to run on Wine and whatnot, I suspect sometimes this is on purpose. And a unrelated big offender is Roblox, they consider Linux a "hacking tool" and ban you if it detects you are somehow running it on Linux, no matter what method you used.
  - MaulingMonkey 6y ago
    > "game programming" Sometimes I'm forced to use OS X as well - not just forced to use Windows - because that's the only thing the iOS toolchains work on and debug with properly. And if I'm targeting mobile, I'm targeting iOS, not just Android - because I'm getting paid too much to ignore that much of the target market. Console SDKs come in the form of windows-only tooling that tightly integrates with Visual Studio - which last I checked, attempts to verify you're using a geniuine licensed Windows installation. And the platform vendors verify what compilers you're using before they allow you to ship, to make sure you're not using ancient builds filled with codegen bugs. And of course you're firing up Windows to actually test your Windows builds for the PC market, right? Especially to root cause weird configuration, architecture, or driver specific bugs? Hell, I've helped develop a UWP app at the behest of Microsoft - they were our publisher - targeting Windows 8 before it was even released. What "non-Windows-only alternatives" do you think I had, exactly, for that? > My point is, people who say their work is only doable on Windows tend to just be scared to move away from the specific tools they know. Bullshit. Even when you have non-Windows alternatives that are compatible with the Windows alternatives, convincing IT to let you do your weird nonstandard thing, and dealing with the interop bugs for all the external people using Windows software is often a headache that will cost far more than just paying the Windows licensing fees and booting it. That's not fear, that's just practicality. People who say there are non-Windows alternatives tend to not realize just how miserable an experience that can be, on the occasions where they're actually technically right, when they're not working alone in an isolated silo with all the free time in the world. Like, sure, I could try and debug msbuild issues my coworkers are having by trying to run it via wine on linux. Or I could ship windows PC games by cross compiling to windows with clang and praying there are no OS specific bugs. OpenGL drivers on windows aren't as bad as they once were, I suppose. But I challenge you to find a single professional gamedev foolish enough to go through that pain in the ass, just to avoid firing up Windows. Surely you can find at least one?
  - zzo38computer 6y ago
    That is sometimes true, However, in many cases I find the Linux-based software is better, actually, and in many other cases, they are just as good. In some cases, it is the DOS-based software which is better. Also, some programmers who write for Windows will also ensure and advertise working on Linux too, so you can still use it even if you are on Linux, if you install Wine. (In some cases, no existing software seems suitable to me, so I write my own.) Sometimes the software is available for multiple operating systems, such as SQLite, which at least I find it better than what I have used before on Windows. I find TeX for typesetting much better than using Microsoft Word, too. And, there are more things too.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  > Which is why I find it absurd for someone to say they don’t understand why someone would need to use Windows. I can't find anyone in the thread saying that. I see people suggesting, perhaps disingenuously or based on anecdata, that it's no big deal not to use Windows, but I don't see anyone questioning why someone would use it.
  - ppseafield 6y ago
    The comment they first replied to said > I don't understand this "have to reboot to do something windows related"
    - JadeNB 6y ago
      > The comment they first replied to said > > I don't understand this "have to reboot to do something windows related" Ah, I see. Right now that comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24051085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24051085 says: > Of course Windows-only things are only on Windows. But a lot of Windows-only things have non-Windows-only alternatives. , which seems less inflammatory. EDIT: Oh, wait, I see—I think you're going a couple more levels up, to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050905 : > I've used linux on my desktop for 20 years, I don't understand this "have to reboot to do something windows related", I guess I just use computers for very different things to you. I read this more charitably, not as saying "why would someone need to use Windows?" but more "I don't need to use Windows, so I don't regard it as a universal need". (That, in turn, came from mmm_grayons's post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24050677 : > And use what instead? I generally use linux on my desktop but have to reboot fairly often to do something windows-related. Libreoffice botches document formatting every time I use it on something above "hello, world." Lots of stuff still only works on windows, though wine compatibility is getting better. which I read, again perhaps unfairly, as suggesting that it is unrealistic for people to consider a computer workflow that doesn't involve Windows.) Perhaps still more charity (or clarity) would have been appropriate, but the explicit acknowledgement that there are different purposes for which different people need computers seems to me to defuse much of what one might perceive as hostility or dismissiveness there.
sergeykish 6y ago
Please, that's disingenuous. I've switched to Linux 12 years ago, it requires sacrifices. I had to switch profession from Symbian Developer to Web Developer, desktop experience was not great, Wine has not helped. I've ended with light DM, shell, browser and vim. And it was worth it. There are so many wonderful aspects, the most relevant here is "for open source community I am not a product". It is blessing and curse - a lot of applications are not that polished, but they are sincere, they do what their authors want for themselves.

iso1631 6y ago

Been distracted today as I've been playing civ6 far too much, when I should be monitoring these missing arps in a cisco switch. So CAD then.