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As much as I want my friends and family to come visit me here -- i'm very very wary of Americans being allowed to land in Asia at this time. It completely drive

As much as I want my friends and family to come visit me here -- i'm very very wary of Americans being allowed to land in Asia at this time. It completely drives me crazy that Americans are so divided about masks. (American here currently in South-East Asia since 2018). As you all know, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan and others have some of the lowest rates of Covid in the world. No one complains about the masks. No one makes a political issue out of it. It's simple -- you can't go into the majority of stores, shopping centers, offices or buildings in any of the cities in these countries. No Karens. No viral videos about people not wanting to wear (or wanting to wear) masks. And the resurgence of Covid-19 is enough to cause the governments to be super-cautious again. People wear them. Cute kids wear them. Old and young people. And we are safe. Very few if any infections or deaths over the last 3 months. Because of the control of the spread, people are more relaxed outdoors and mask use outdoors is around 65% at this point just from looking around. No Covid-19. Enough. About. The. Masks. Already. Wear one. Protect your fellow humans.

k33n 6y ago
I personally choose not to wear a mask. I don’t have COVID-19, so there’s no reason for me to wear a mask. There’s no evidence that supports the idea of asymptotic spread, so wearing a mask when you have no COVID symptoms accomplishes nothing.
- macintux 6y ago
  Even if you ignore all the evidence that there is asymptomatic spread, wearing a mask does provide you some protection from others. And indicates that you place some value on others’ safety. But clearly at this point science and evidence have become matters of personal belief and convenience, which is quite unfortunate.
- NineStarPoint 6y ago
  The current evidence points to asymptomatic transmission being much less likely than symptomatic transmission. This =/= no evidence that supports asymptotic spread. And that’s ignoring that there are separate studies that think the chance of asymptomatic transmission is much higher, and studies that estimate the majority of transmission is caused by asymptomatic cases. Given the cost of wearing a mask is low and the price of being wrong about the evidence is high, there remains no good reason not to wear a mask.
- Retric 6y ago
  Asymptotic is a different classification than presymptomatic. Both occurred and “Both are difficult to stop. Presymptomatic spread is believed to be far more common than asymptomatic spread.” https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200609/who-clairifies-comments-on-asymptomatic-covid-spread https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200609/who-clairifies-comm... Critically, you don’t know the future and have no idea if your presymtomatic or not. It’s only relent for contract tracing not masks.
- detritus 6y ago
  I consider myself fairly hygenic and don't think I have any diseases, and don't really think we should be concerned about clouds of particulate spittle - so what difference is a little quantity? If I want to spit on the restaurant or train floor, I darn well will! What difference does it make?
  - k33n 6y ago
    I'm walking around minding my own business, not spitting on people. People who wear their masks while riding a bicycle or walking down the street are making decisions based on what a biased media has told them, not science or data.
    - detritus 6y ago
      Which is why I chose two private domains in my examples - a consumer retail environment and public transport, both of which were subject to a change in culture 100-odd years ago, wherein prior boors wouldn't have even questioned spitting on the floor. 'Clearly that is rude' to a modern audience. I don't disagree with your views on people wearing masks when there's no one about, or they're in a car or on a bike, etc, but you didn't make a distinction initially between that and places where it's reasonable to expect people should 'just shut up and put a mask on'.
      - k33n 6y ago
        It's never a reasonable position that someone should "shut up and do what I say". So many pro-science and rational thinkers have let fear totally consume them. I'm not sure why. The death rate for COVID-19 is less than 1% of infected.
        detritus 6y ago
        It's more 'stop being a prick and be polite'. Society is a series of rules, stated or otherwise, that the generality gravitate around. It's not rocket science, it's just manners. One has every right not to wear a mask, just as a business owner has every right to deny someone access to their facilities. Masks are irritating, but the sheer histrionics that they are causing in some quarters is ludicrous and is clearly more 'anti-science' (if that's really your criticism here) than the masked contingent is.
- stordoff 6y ago
  > I don’t have COVID-19 You can't know this with certainty at any given time unless you've been rigorous in avoiding social contact and other exposure, and at worst the mask accomplishes nothing but does no harm (in the vast majority of cases), so there's no reason to _not_ wear a mask. > There’s no evidence that supports the idea of asymptotic spread "Asymptomatic transmission (i.e. when the infector has no symptoms throughout the course of the disease), is difficult to quantify. [...] Pre-symptomatic transmission (i.e. when the infector develops symptoms after transmitting the virus to another person) has been reported. Exposure of secondary cases occurred 1–3 days before the source patient developed symptoms." https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/transmission https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/trans... "The extent of truly asymptomatic infection in the community remains unknown. [...] Multiple studies have shown that people infect others before they themselves became ill, which is supported by available viral shedding data" https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmission-of-sars-cov-2-implications-for-infection-prevention-precautions https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmissi...
tjbiddle 6y ago
I'm in the same boat - Been in SEA for a number of years. All the locals wear masks and there's no issue. The foreigners are the ones pushing against it.
logicchains 6y ago
As a counterexample: New Zealand, minimal infections and deaths, and minimal mask wearing. https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-general-public/covid-19-use-face-masks-community https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/... "Healthy people in the community are not currently required to wear a face mask for protection from COVID-19 in New Zealand. In our current environment, the potential benefits of requiring masks to be worn by all healthy people in the community are not felt to outweigh the potential risks."
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
  Because nobody's coming in, at all.
- monoideism 6y ago
  Yes, because New Zealand has such a low transmission rate they can carefully track and isolate new cases. Because there's such a low rate, they don't need masks. When it's everywhere, like in the US, we don't have that option. Masks are one of few mitigations available to us.
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  What's the average population density in NZ vs all those other places? Anecdotally I'd say a small fraction.
- throwaheyy 6y ago
  Seriously? This is because they DID wear masks and comply with lockdowns and quarantine — to the point of getting rid of Covid. The US can’t even get past square one.
whiddershins 6y ago
Americans aren’t that divided about masks. I’ve driven around the country quite a bit during this. Most people do not have a problem with masks. Don’t believe the hype. The majority of people Just go along with whatever. Most people are receptive to masks. There’s a tiny vocal minority that are against them.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  I've had to road trip a lot as well, and my experience was different. There were a lot of people who don't wear masks.
7952 6y ago
I think the problem is driven by laziness. People just can't be bothered. But they identify as "hard working" and need to provide some kind of post hoc justification. And the current mess of identity politics provides an oven ready excuse for every situation.

k33n 6y ago

I personally choose not to wear a mask. I don’t have COVID-19, so there’s no reason for me to wear a mask. There’s no evidence that supports the idea of asymptotic spread, so wearing a mask when you have no COVID symptoms accomplishes nothing.

macintux 6y ago
Even if you ignore all the evidence that there is asymptomatic spread, wearing a mask does provide you some protection from others. And indicates that you place some value on others’ safety. But clearly at this point science and evidence have become matters of personal belief and convenience, which is quite unfortunate.
NineStarPoint 6y ago
The current evidence points to asymptomatic transmission being much less likely than symptomatic transmission. This =/= no evidence that supports asymptotic spread. And that’s ignoring that there are separate studies that think the chance of asymptomatic transmission is much higher, and studies that estimate the majority of transmission is caused by asymptomatic cases. Given the cost of wearing a mask is low and the price of being wrong about the evidence is high, there remains no good reason not to wear a mask.
Retric 6y ago
Asymptotic is a different classification than presymptomatic. Both occurred and “Both are difficult to stop. Presymptomatic spread is believed to be far more common than asymptomatic spread.” https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200609/who-clairifies-comments-on-asymptomatic-covid-spread https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200609/who-clairifies-comm... Critically, you don’t know the future and have no idea if your presymtomatic or not. It’s only relent for contract tracing not masks.
detritus 6y ago
I consider myself fairly hygenic and don't think I have any diseases, and don't really think we should be concerned about clouds of particulate spittle - so what difference is a little quantity? If I want to spit on the restaurant or train floor, I darn well will! What difference does it make?
- k33n 6y ago
  I'm walking around minding my own business, not spitting on people. People who wear their masks while riding a bicycle or walking down the street are making decisions based on what a biased media has told them, not science or data.
  - detritus 6y ago
    Which is why I chose two private domains in my examples - a consumer retail environment and public transport, both of which were subject to a change in culture 100-odd years ago, wherein prior boors wouldn't have even questioned spitting on the floor. 'Clearly that is rude' to a modern audience. I don't disagree with your views on people wearing masks when there's no one about, or they're in a car or on a bike, etc, but you didn't make a distinction initially between that and places where it's reasonable to expect people should 'just shut up and put a mask on'.
    - k33n 6y ago
      It's never a reasonable position that someone should "shut up and do what I say". So many pro-science and rational thinkers have let fear totally consume them. I'm not sure why. The death rate for COVID-19 is less than 1% of infected.
      - detritus 6y ago
        It's more 'stop being a prick and be polite'. Society is a series of rules, stated or otherwise, that the generality gravitate around. It's not rocket science, it's just manners. One has every right not to wear a mask, just as a business owner has every right to deny someone access to their facilities. Masks are irritating, but the sheer histrionics that they are causing in some quarters is ludicrous and is clearly more 'anti-science' (if that's really your criticism here) than the masked contingent is.
stordoff 6y ago
> I don’t have COVID-19 You can't know this with certainty at any given time unless you've been rigorous in avoiding social contact and other exposure, and at worst the mask accomplishes nothing but does no harm (in the vast majority of cases), so there's no reason to _not_ wear a mask. > There’s no evidence that supports the idea of asymptotic spread "Asymptomatic transmission (i.e. when the infector has no symptoms throughout the course of the disease), is difficult to quantify. [...] Pre-symptomatic transmission (i.e. when the infector develops symptoms after transmitting the virus to another person) has been reported. Exposure of secondary cases occurred 1–3 days before the source patient developed symptoms." https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/transmission https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/trans... "The extent of truly asymptomatic infection in the community remains unknown. [...] Multiple studies have shown that people infect others before they themselves became ill, which is supported by available viral shedding data" https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmission-of-sars-cov-2-implications-for-infection-prevention-precautions https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmissi...

tjbiddle 6y ago

I'm in the same boat - Been in SEA for a number of years. All the locals wear masks and there's no issue. The foreigners are the ones pushing against it.

logicchains 6y ago

As a counterexample: New Zealand, minimal infections and deaths, and minimal mask wearing. https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-general-public/covid-19-use-face-masks-community https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/... "Healthy people in the community are not currently required to wear a face mask for protection from COVID-19 in New Zealand. In our current environment, the potential benefits of requiring masks to be worn by all healthy people in the community are not felt to outweigh the potential risks."

ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
Because nobody's coming in, at all.
monoideism 6y ago
Yes, because New Zealand has such a low transmission rate they can carefully track and isolate new cases. Because there's such a low rate, they don't need masks. When it's everywhere, like in the US, we don't have that option. Masks are one of few mitigations available to us.
DarthGhandi 6y ago
What's the average population density in NZ vs all those other places? Anecdotally I'd say a small fraction.
throwaheyy 6y ago
Seriously? This is because they DID wear masks and comply with lockdowns and quarantine — to the point of getting rid of Covid. The US can’t even get past square one.

whiddershins 6y ago

Americans aren’t that divided about masks. I’ve driven around the country quite a bit during this. Most people do not have a problem with masks. Don’t believe the hype. The majority of people Just go along with whatever. Most people are receptive to masks. There’s a tiny vocal minority that are against them.

bilbo0s 6y ago
I've had to road trip a lot as well, and my experience was different. There were a lot of people who don't wear masks.

7952 6y ago

I think the problem is driven by laziness. People just can't be bothered. But they identify as "hard working" and need to provide some kind of post hoc justification. And the current mess of identity politics provides an oven ready excuse for every situation.