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Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real. The United States should be playing hard ball. The US TikTok systems are compromised by Chinese spammers al

Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real. The United States should be playing hard ball. The US TikTok systems are compromised by Chinese spammers already.

borg_ 6y ago
> Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real. Comment like this lumps tiktok, a privately owned company with the Chinese government with no evidence. It's never about national security but really about US politicians seeing a social network with real reach in the US that for the first time does NOT need to pay to lobby in the US, nor to be responsive to congressional inquiry (as they have been able to do recently with US tech platforms, accusing platforms of suppressing conservative/liberal views, again without evidence). If you know anything about bytedance's founder you would know that he's been an outspoken globalist, criticizing the government's approach to free flow of information on multiple accounts. Uninformed comments like this is truly tragic for many globalist people in China who grew up hoping for a global stage with open, fair competition and who often do not agree with the government's perspective.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  It's worse than that. The hostilities towards everything China in 2020 are pushing all sorts of Chinese people away, who otherwise would have been supportive of US and liberal values. What baffles me is that nobody knows that this is happening. Nobody is trying to understand how the other side sees it, and to work towards a real solution. Or maybe people are just wilfully blind to this possibility. People are so convinced that their view is the only possible legitimate view, and that no other legitimate views could possibly exist.
  - ir77 6y ago
    anyone with power and wealth in china is dependent on the government, they only have these things because the government allowed them to have and keep it, for now. thus it really doesn't matter how one individual on that side sees things, he sees things the way his side allows him to see. it would be different if people exiled from china and were getting involving once they're in the western world, but to broadcast one's independence while in china is a moot point. i have been to china many times and have many chinese friends, also many HK friends, and the chinese, while while very hospitable to the US will never pick US over china, never publicly or to an outsider anyways, they always follow the party line. until the mentality of the regime allows and tolerates the discent there are no unique feelings on the other side to consider.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      So you're downplaying the number of people who feel that way. You're also saying that their feelings are not genuine, and only forced upon them. All this does not bode well for world peace. Be careful of what you're wishing for. A democratic China may not be so different in terms of geopolitics as you would think (or they would be different, just not in the way you expect). Try reading what Kishore Mahbubani — ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head — has to say.
      - ir77 6y ago
        with democracy and ability to speak your mind without goverment's persecution everyone is playing on the same field. i'd much rather take democratic china's disdain than dictator's china friendly overtures. you can work towards a long term solution of common understanding under democracy.
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        If I think a few steps ahead, about the implications so what you say, then this is what I read: Unless the Chinese people overthrow their government, and succesfully install a democratic government, they do not deserve to gain wealth through business with the rest of the world, and do not deserve to live a good life. The chaos and suffering that such a process brings is not important. The unknown chance that a post-overthrow government is both democratic and competent, is also not important. The fact that the Chinese people's lives in the past 30 years have become tremendously more free and more prosperous, and that these are the best 30 years in the past 3000 years, is also not important. In the words of Kishore Mahbubani: do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? Condemning China on a single ideological issue, while ignoring the complexity of the context as a whole, feels good because it aligns with your values, but doesn't do anybody anything good. Actual good changes are achieved through more dialog, better mutual understanding, better relations and rational approaches.
        ir77 6y ago
        china's masses have traded freedom and liberty for wealth and prosperity -- or i should say had them 'exchanged for them by their government'. but make no mistake, that wealth and prosperity is only there for those that support the regime, how are dissidents treated? how are muslims treated? i don't understand your argument, just because the chinese are wealthy and happy doesn't mean they can't be be shunned for their ideology. your argument is like the comment i heard when i traveled to chartleston and all the locals still to this day lament the civil war -- the war of northern aggression -- and how prosperous and beautiful life was in charleston [beacause it was all supported at the colossal expense of slavery]. this is your argument for china: ignore the slavery of the mind and actions, look how prosperous they are; well, some of them anyways. i'm happy to say that i live on the side that won't sell you a seat at the table simply because you've brought a bunch of money with you. that there is some principal reason that goes beyond that.
- lovetocode 6y ago
  Is the Chinese cyber threat not real? The United States, Russia and China are the largest producers of state sanctioned attacks by a significant margin. You are painting me as some sort of bigot when in reality I have a perfectly legitimate reason to be concerned. I have every right and reason to feel the way I do. I would support similar sentiment of any Chinese or Russian citizen who uses an American product. They can be cautious too, it won't hurt my feelings. We all make the best decision we can with the information we currently have. Moreover, my TikTok information has already been compromised which pairs nicely with my SF-86 data that was also compromised with the OPM attacks. Why did I decide to even use the application to begin with you might ask? I chose to because I didn't want to rule out what is otherwise one of the most popular social media platforms in the country because of my own bias. TikTok is by far my favorite social media application I just no longer choose to use it. I will watch the TikTok content that trickles down into YouTube for the time being. I have no means to verify authenticity of your statement that the owner of TikTok is some sort of 'outspoken globalist' who condemns the Chinese government. All the while operating one of the largest growing social media companies based out of a communist country. If the US data is segregated from the Chinese based data centers then why did I start receiving text messages with Chinese characters in it within several days of downloading the application and creating an account? Was it all a coincidence? I would be naive to not believe that it was simply coincidental however it is damning. Let me make my next point abundantly clear since you made some significant assumptions about my character. My concerns are rooted in a lack of trust with the Chinese government to keep my best interests in mind as a citizen of the United States.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
If the threat of Tiktok gathering data is so real, then isn't a much better solution, to pressure Google and Apple into improving their security models? That way, nobody can spy on your phone anymore. Or do you think Tiktok is the only and last threat there will ever exist? But nobody's talking about actual solutions. All this looks more like a witch hunt to me.
- fr2null 6y ago
  I don't think the key data that TikTok is gathering is anything you can really block on your phone. It doesn't ask for your phone number, it doesn't ask contacts, it doesn't ask for access to your messages. Instead, it looks for trends, it looks at who you are. I (18 years old) have used TikTok for about 2 months, before deleting it because it simply got too addictive. In that time it learned what my favourite games are, what shows I watched as a child, my political views, my eating preferences, my technology preferences. The list goes on. While I'm not sure how much of this is saved in a black box and only known by the algorithm and how much they can extract, I'd argue that this is many times more valuable for China that my personal phone. Furthermore the power to influence the algorithm, subtle and slightly of course, may slowly change the minds of literal millions of teens.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    There is a solution even to that. That's what the Microsoft sale is all about. That's why Bytedance proposed to sell ALL shares of their US branch. Replace the entire US branch staff with US employees. Vet every line of code. Don't send any data to China. This is the ultimate solution. And yet nobody seems to be interested in this solution. People are still cooking up new reasons to ban Tiktok. Or ignoring the existence of this solution altogether. Why do you think that might be? I suspect it's because the issue is more emotional and fear-based than rational. People are falling for the propaganda.
    - shuntress 6y ago
      That does not actually solve the problem. Yes, maybe I find it a little easier to trust Microsoft than Bytedance. But the problem is not who holds the data that I generate about myself. The problem is that I have zero (or very little) agency to view or manage this data. That lack of agency is important because this data will have a tangible impact on my life.
Eridrus 6y ago
The cyber threat from China is very real, but cyber capability is super cheap. A one-off capability is going to run in the low single digit millions. You wouldn't endanger an asset currently worth tens of billions and growing for that.
ponker 6y ago
The situation that we have is that the only person who actually has the willpower to stand up to China (Trump) is simultaneously too idiotic and too self-centered to effectively do so.
- beaunative 6y ago
  This is a laughable statement. You don't need willpower to stand up to China, you need the presidency and the will to do so.

Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real. The United States should be playing hard ball. The US TikTok systems are compromised by Chinese spammers already.

borg_ 6y ago

> Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real. Comment like this lumps tiktok, a privately owned company with the Chinese government with no evidence. It's never about national security but really about US politicians seeing a social network with real reach in the US that for the first time does NOT need to pay to lobby in the US, nor to be responsive to congressional inquiry (as they have been able to do recently with US tech platforms, accusing platforms of suppressing conservative/liberal views, again without evidence). If you know anything about bytedance's founder you would know that he's been an outspoken globalist, criticizing the government's approach to free flow of information on multiple accounts. Uninformed comments like this is truly tragic for many globalist people in China who grew up hoping for a global stage with open, fair competition and who often do not agree with the government's perspective.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
It's worse than that. The hostilities towards everything China in 2020 are pushing all sorts of Chinese people away, who otherwise would have been supportive of US and liberal values. What baffles me is that nobody knows that this is happening. Nobody is trying to understand how the other side sees it, and to work towards a real solution. Or maybe people are just wilfully blind to this possibility. People are so convinced that their view is the only possible legitimate view, and that no other legitimate views could possibly exist.
- ir77 6y ago
  anyone with power and wealth in china is dependent on the government, they only have these things because the government allowed them to have and keep it, for now. thus it really doesn't matter how one individual on that side sees things, he sees things the way his side allows him to see. it would be different if people exiled from china and were getting involving once they're in the western world, but to broadcast one's independence while in china is a moot point. i have been to china many times and have many chinese friends, also many HK friends, and the chinese, while while very hospitable to the US will never pick US over china, never publicly or to an outsider anyways, they always follow the party line. until the mentality of the regime allows and tolerates the discent there are no unique feelings on the other side to consider.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    So you're downplaying the number of people who feel that way. You're also saying that their feelings are not genuine, and only forced upon them. All this does not bode well for world peace. Be careful of what you're wishing for. A democratic China may not be so different in terms of geopolitics as you would think (or they would be different, just not in the way you expect). Try reading what Kishore Mahbubani — ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head — has to say.
    - ir77 6y ago
      with democracy and ability to speak your mind without goverment's persecution everyone is playing on the same field. i'd much rather take democratic china's disdain than dictator's china friendly overtures. you can work towards a long term solution of common understanding under democracy.
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        If I think a few steps ahead, about the implications so what you say, then this is what I read: Unless the Chinese people overthrow their government, and succesfully install a democratic government, they do not deserve to gain wealth through business with the rest of the world, and do not deserve to live a good life. The chaos and suffering that such a process brings is not important. The unknown chance that a post-overthrow government is both democratic and competent, is also not important. The fact that the Chinese people's lives in the past 30 years have become tremendously more free and more prosperous, and that these are the best 30 years in the past 3000 years, is also not important. In the words of Kishore Mahbubani: do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? Condemning China on a single ideological issue, while ignoring the complexity of the context as a whole, feels good because it aligns with your values, but doesn't do anybody anything good. Actual good changes are achieved through more dialog, better mutual understanding, better relations and rational approaches.
        ir77 6y ago
        china's masses have traded freedom and liberty for wealth and prosperity -- or i should say had them 'exchanged for them by their government'. but make no mistake, that wealth and prosperity is only there for those that support the regime, how are dissidents treated? how are muslims treated? i don't understand your argument, just because the chinese are wealthy and happy doesn't mean they can't be be shunned for their ideology. your argument is like the comment i heard when i traveled to chartleston and all the locals still to this day lament the civil war -- the war of northern aggression -- and how prosperous and beautiful life was in charleston [beacause it was all supported at the colossal expense of slavery]. this is your argument for china: ignore the slavery of the mind and actions, look how prosperous they are; well, some of them anyways. i'm happy to say that i live on the side that won't sell you a seat at the table simply because you've brought a bunch of money with you. that there is some principal reason that goes beyond that.
lovetocode 6y ago
Is the Chinese cyber threat not real? The United States, Russia and China are the largest producers of state sanctioned attacks by a significant margin. You are painting me as some sort of bigot when in reality I have a perfectly legitimate reason to be concerned. I have every right and reason to feel the way I do. I would support similar sentiment of any Chinese or Russian citizen who uses an American product. They can be cautious too, it won't hurt my feelings. We all make the best decision we can with the information we currently have. Moreover, my TikTok information has already been compromised which pairs nicely with my SF-86 data that was also compromised with the OPM attacks. Why did I decide to even use the application to begin with you might ask? I chose to because I didn't want to rule out what is otherwise one of the most popular social media platforms in the country because of my own bias. TikTok is by far my favorite social media application I just no longer choose to use it. I will watch the TikTok content that trickles down into YouTube for the time being. I have no means to verify authenticity of your statement that the owner of TikTok is some sort of 'outspoken globalist' who condemns the Chinese government. All the while operating one of the largest growing social media companies based out of a communist country. If the US data is segregated from the Chinese based data centers then why did I start receiving text messages with Chinese characters in it within several days of downloading the application and creating an account? Was it all a coincidence? I would be naive to not believe that it was simply coincidental however it is damning. Let me make my next point abundantly clear since you made some significant assumptions about my character. My concerns are rooted in a lack of trust with the Chinese government to keep my best interests in mind as a citizen of the United States.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

If the threat of Tiktok gathering data is so real, then isn't a much better solution, to pressure Google and Apple into improving their security models? That way, nobody can spy on your phone anymore. Or do you think Tiktok is the only and last threat there will ever exist? But nobody's talking about actual solutions. All this looks more like a witch hunt to me.

fr2null 6y ago
I don't think the key data that TikTok is gathering is anything you can really block on your phone. It doesn't ask for your phone number, it doesn't ask contacts, it doesn't ask for access to your messages. Instead, it looks for trends, it looks at who you are. I (18 years old) have used TikTok for about 2 months, before deleting it because it simply got too addictive. In that time it learned what my favourite games are, what shows I watched as a child, my political views, my eating preferences, my technology preferences. The list goes on. While I'm not sure how much of this is saved in a black box and only known by the algorithm and how much they can extract, I'd argue that this is many times more valuable for China that my personal phone. Furthermore the power to influence the algorithm, subtle and slightly of course, may slowly change the minds of literal millions of teens.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  There is a solution even to that. That's what the Microsoft sale is all about. That's why Bytedance proposed to sell ALL shares of their US branch. Replace the entire US branch staff with US employees. Vet every line of code. Don't send any data to China. This is the ultimate solution. And yet nobody seems to be interested in this solution. People are still cooking up new reasons to ban Tiktok. Or ignoring the existence of this solution altogether. Why do you think that might be? I suspect it's because the issue is more emotional and fear-based than rational. People are falling for the propaganda.
  - shuntress 6y ago
    That does not actually solve the problem. Yes, maybe I find it a little easier to trust Microsoft than Bytedance. But the problem is not who holds the data that I generate about myself. The problem is that I have zero (or very little) agency to view or manage this data. That lack of agency is important because this data will have a tangible impact on my life.

Eridrus 6y ago

The cyber threat from China is very real, but cyber capability is super cheap. A one-off capability is going to run in the low single digit millions. You wouldn't endanger an asset currently worth tens of billions and growing for that.

ponker 6y ago

The situation that we have is that the only person who actually has the willpower to stand up to China (Trump) is simultaneously too idiotic and too self-centered to effectively do so.

beaunative 6y ago
This is a laughable statement. You don't need willpower to stand up to China, you need the presidency and the will to do so.