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I know maybe you’re trying to give advice, but all I think when reading your comment is: “what a pretentious prick, what a great example of saying nothing and a

I know maybe you’re trying to give advice, but all I think when reading your comment is: “what a pretentious prick, what a great example of saying nothing and adding nothing to the conversation“ - your comment made me cringe. For me you’ve illustrated the point well that many in the existing elite - with inherited privilege, knowledge, and position in hierarchy - are ruined by money and obsessed with status signaling through 'elite consumerism' as a form of identity. I mean, there are human beings who are making these ridiculously overpriced vanity watches day in, day out, in a miserable factory somewhere. All I see when I see these ads for Patek Phillippe, or similar, is a hopeless human doing work that they won't benefit from. I wish rentier capitalism would end now, so we’d all live in a Commons-based peer production life where everyone was fed, instead of this ‘some people will buy a Ferrari and a rolex today, and some children will die from malnutrition’-world. Luxury is a scam. The ultra rich (read: dominators) are just as anxious as the Precariat, scared to lose it all. Not to mention their kids are often ruined and unbearable people. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maWdDl_OjlQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maWdDl_OjlQ - Edit: when I write "Patek or similar" I am really talking about any type of 'luxury good', like a Prada bag, or a cheaper-than-Rolex Michael Kors watch etc. The people 'defending' Patek are missing my point (or I am missing them?) My point is that living in a world with artificial scarcity-creating systems is disturbing to me (Rentier Capitalism by Prof Guy Standing)[1]. It constantly surprises me how our priorities became the way they are with many of us in chains, and a few rolling around in a pool of blood-stained gold and diamonds. [2],[3] [1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corruption-capitalism-guy-standing/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corru... [2] https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7iv1fef6qo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7iv1fef6qo

pegasus 6y ago
I'd be surprised if those people making Patek watches are not extremely well paid craftsmen who really love what they are doing.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > well paid craftsmen As opposed to "a sweatshop in a low cost geography by some human drones", like another person who replied wrote? You do know that the Global North is hoarding IP, and that another world of Commons-based peer production is possible, right? We could all be 'well paid craftsmen' if we shifted to that. In my eyes, you're showing an incredible privilege here, being aware of, and talking about, Patek watches. Uppppper class. [1] [1] https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
threedots 6y ago
I think you are underestimating the skill and craft involved in making some of these watches. Have you actually seen a movement? They're not made in a sweatshop in a low cost geography by some human drones. A watch maker is a high status craftsman and can be influential in their own right (look up the story of FP Journe if you doubt that). If you come to Switzerland you can see the actual factories for many of the producers in the area around Geneva and they are more like pharma manufacturing plants than fast fashion warehouses. It's very uncharitable to assume that because you can't see the craft in something that it doesn't exist or is a scam. I couldn't taste the difference between two kinds of whisky if you put a gun to my head but it doesn't mean other people can't or that it's some kind of status game in disguise.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > They're not made in a sweatshop in a low cost geography by some human drones. What the hell does that mean? 'human drones' > It's very uncharitable to assume that because you can't see the craft in something that it doesn't exist or is a scam. “I don't believe in charity. I believe in solidarity. Charity is so vertical. It goes from the top to the bottom. Solidarity is horizontal. It respects the other person. I have a lot to learn from other people.” ― Eduardo Galeano
ramraj07 6y ago
What are you blaberring about? I agree that these luxury watches are mere status symbols and not a necessity, but no one's selling them at 90% margin. A considerable amount of highly skilled exclusively first world labor goes into these watches, and these devices are probably the single best type of objects where the labor that went into it is patently obvious right in front of your eyes. In fact, that exactly IS the symbol here for the most part, the fact that it's a human creation whose value is purely of the labor (the good kind) more than something that came out of the earth, and something, all considered, that holds its value over time instead of being ephemeral. I understand the angst and anger against the plutocracy but logic needn't go out the window in pursuit of an outlet for that anger.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > whose value is purely of the labor (the good kind) What's the 'bad' kind? > logic needn't go out the window in pursuit of an outlet for that anger Many of these watches are Swiss. Switzerland is (or was) a known tax-haven... It's our inability to connect the dots that baffles me sometimes. Where else do the wealthy elites get the kind of cash needed to buy these watches?
  - ramraj07 6y ago
    The good kind of labor is where the people doing it are free, compensated and satisfied. If we are going to avoid Switzerland because it's a tax haven then we should probably avoid doing any commerce with any country, including the one you probably are in now (unless you're in NZ or something). And with regards to your update - no one is talking about faux luxury consumer goods here; in fact an argument can be made that the _only_ sustainable mode of consumerism is the kind practiced by these luxury watch makers if antrhung.
  - mhroth 6y ago
    High quality watches were coming out of Switzerland long before it was a tax haven. [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/style/international/what-enabled-switzerland-to-dominate-watchmaking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/style/international/what-...
fractionalhare 6y ago
Sorry, I should clarify that my comment wasn't intended to be advice or endorsement of the situation. I was being descriptive, not prescriptive. I don't really have a dog in the race when it comes to whether or not such veblen goods should exist. I agree they are often only sought after as status objects, but I also can't discount the possibility that some people really do appreciate their craftsmanship.

pegasus 6y ago

I'd be surprised if those people making Patek watches are not extremely well paid craftsmen who really love what they are doing.

bergstromm466 6y ago
> well paid craftsmen As opposed to "a sweatshop in a low cost geography by some human drones", like another person who replied wrote? You do know that the Global North is hoarding IP, and that another world of Commons-based peer production is possible, right? We could all be 'well paid craftsmen' if we shifted to that. In my eyes, you're showing an incredible privilege here, being aware of, and talking about, Patek watches. Uppppper class. [1] [1] https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435

threedots 6y ago

I think you are underestimating the skill and craft involved in making some of these watches. Have you actually seen a movement? They're not made in a sweatshop in a low cost geography by some human drones. A watch maker is a high status craftsman and can be influential in their own right (look up the story of FP Journe if you doubt that). If you come to Switzerland you can see the actual factories for many of the producers in the area around Geneva and they are more like pharma manufacturing plants than fast fashion warehouses. It's very uncharitable to assume that because you can't see the craft in something that it doesn't exist or is a scam. I couldn't taste the difference between two kinds of whisky if you put a gun to my head but it doesn't mean other people can't or that it's some kind of status game in disguise.

bergstromm466 6y ago
> They're not made in a sweatshop in a low cost geography by some human drones. What the hell does that mean? 'human drones' > It's very uncharitable to assume that because you can't see the craft in something that it doesn't exist or is a scam. “I don't believe in charity. I believe in solidarity. Charity is so vertical. It goes from the top to the bottom. Solidarity is horizontal. It respects the other person. I have a lot to learn from other people.” ― Eduardo Galeano

ramraj07 6y ago

What are you blaberring about? I agree that these luxury watches are mere status symbols and not a necessity, but no one's selling them at 90% margin. A considerable amount of highly skilled exclusively first world labor goes into these watches, and these devices are probably the single best type of objects where the labor that went into it is patently obvious right in front of your eyes. In fact, that exactly IS the symbol here for the most part, the fact that it's a human creation whose value is purely of the labor (the good kind) more than something that came out of the earth, and something, all considered, that holds its value over time instead of being ephemeral. I understand the angst and anger against the plutocracy but logic needn't go out the window in pursuit of an outlet for that anger.

bergstromm466 6y ago
> whose value is purely of the labor (the good kind) What's the 'bad' kind? > logic needn't go out the window in pursuit of an outlet for that anger Many of these watches are Swiss. Switzerland is (or was) a known tax-haven... It's our inability to connect the dots that baffles me sometimes. Where else do the wealthy elites get the kind of cash needed to buy these watches?
- ramraj07 6y ago
  The good kind of labor is where the people doing it are free, compensated and satisfied. If we are going to avoid Switzerland because it's a tax haven then we should probably avoid doing any commerce with any country, including the one you probably are in now (unless you're in NZ or something). And with regards to your update - no one is talking about faux luxury consumer goods here; in fact an argument can be made that the _only_ sustainable mode of consumerism is the kind practiced by these luxury watch makers if antrhung.
- mhroth 6y ago
  High quality watches were coming out of Switzerland long before it was a tax haven. [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/style/international/what-enabled-switzerland-to-dominate-watchmaking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/style/international/what-...

fractionalhare 6y ago

Sorry, I should clarify that my comment wasn't intended to be advice or endorsement of the situation. I was being descriptive, not prescriptive. I don't really have a dog in the race when it comes to whether or not such veblen goods should exist. I agree they are often only sought after as status objects, but I also can't discount the possibility that some people really do appreciate their craftsmanship.