3 ms·

Combining your comment and DarkShikari's (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2404278 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2404278), it seems like a good shootou

Combining your comment and DarkShikari's (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2404278 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2404278), it seems like a good shootout should simply compare the simplest, most idiomatic solution possible in each language.

stewbrew 16y ago
The problem with a comparison of idiomatic solutions is that they rely in different degrees on what's in their libraries. IIRC the shootout tries to avoid this by comparing similar solutions using the same algorithm that are actually implemented with the interpreter/compiler in question. IMHO that's the more sensible way to do this.
- akkartik 16y ago
  Perhaps that concern is eliminated with good test programs? As an extreme example, if I wanted to compare how different languages do array slicing it's meaningless to force python to implement array slicing without the [:] operator. But then this whole test program is meaningless anyway. You're right that there's a lot of nuance here, and perhaps there's no better solution. It's not even clear to me if there's a meaningful question to be answered. "This ocean's warmer than that one? What part? In summer or winter? Did you measure near a blue whale's fart?"
igouy 16y ago
If that's what you'd like to see then please make the measurements and publish the programs for that comparison!
- akkartik 16y ago
  No I think I'll just sit here and complain ineffectually, but thanks for the suggestion! I can work on only one thing at a time, but I can complain about many things at once. I think both functions are useful. I wasn't even aware of this particular problem. Now this thread's taught me (and others) to utterly ignore the shootout. That's useful even if nobody builds a replacement.
  - igouy 16y ago
    What "particular problem"?
    - akkartik 16y ago
      That the solutions shown are filtered through an arbitrary set of hoops.
      - igouy 16y ago
        There's nothing arbitrary about wanting a Python program to work with CPython and Python 3.
        akkartik 16y ago
        I don't see how your one-line response is addressing the original article's criticisms, especially in the final paragraph. I'm also disappointed that you respond to a rebuttal by switching your argument, without acknowledging whether the rebuttal is correct or not. I'm going to stop responding to this thread.
        igouy 16y ago
        Do you think that final paragraph is somehow The Truth? >> "It's also not possible to send any messages once your ticket has been marked as closed, meaning to dispute a decision you basically need to pray the maintainer reopens it for some reason." Truth: There's a public discussion forum! I'm disappointed that Alex Gaynor never mentioned that the first problem with his program was a bug in CPython, but instead kept that to himself for his blog. I'm disappointed that Alex Gaynor never mentions in his blog that the next version of his program didn't work on x64 - it hung and timed-out after 1 hour. Joseph La Fata contributed a Python pi-digits program the same week - his program worked first time on x86 and x64, on PyPy and CPython and Python 3 and only used ctypes to get to GMP. 2 days ago Joseph La Fata contributed a Python spectral-norm program - his program worked first time on x86 and x64 on PyPy and CPython and Python 3. Do you see the difference yet? What do you think the blog entry "My experience with Alex Gaynor" would be like?

stewbrew 16y ago

The problem with a comparison of idiomatic solutions is that they rely in different degrees on what's in their libraries. IIRC the shootout tries to avoid this by comparing similar solutions using the same algorithm that are actually implemented with the interpreter/compiler in question. IMHO that's the more sensible way to do this.

akkartik 16y ago
Perhaps that concern is eliminated with good test programs? As an extreme example, if I wanted to compare how different languages do array slicing it's meaningless to force python to implement array slicing without the [:] operator. But then this whole test program is meaningless anyway. You're right that there's a lot of nuance here, and perhaps there's no better solution. It's not even clear to me if there's a meaningful question to be answered. "This ocean's warmer than that one? What part? In summer or winter? Did you measure near a blue whale's fart?"

igouy 16y ago

If that's what you'd like to see then please make the measurements and publish the programs for that comparison!

akkartik 16y ago
No I think I'll just sit here and complain ineffectually, but thanks for the suggestion! I can work on only one thing at a time, but I can complain about many things at once. I think both functions are useful. I wasn't even aware of this particular problem. Now this thread's taught me (and others) to utterly ignore the shootout. That's useful even if nobody builds a replacement.
- igouy 16y ago
  What "particular problem"?
  - akkartik 16y ago
    That the solutions shown are filtered through an arbitrary set of hoops.
    - igouy 16y ago
      There's nothing arbitrary about wanting a Python program to work with CPython and Python 3.
      - akkartik 16y ago
        I don't see how your one-line response is addressing the original article's criticisms, especially in the final paragraph. I'm also disappointed that you respond to a rebuttal by switching your argument, without acknowledging whether the rebuttal is correct or not. I'm going to stop responding to this thread.
        igouy 16y ago
        Do you think that final paragraph is somehow The Truth? >> "It's also not possible to send any messages once your ticket has been marked as closed, meaning to dispute a decision you basically need to pray the maintainer reopens it for some reason." Truth: There's a public discussion forum! I'm disappointed that Alex Gaynor never mentioned that the first problem with his program was a bug in CPython, but instead kept that to himself for his blog. I'm disappointed that Alex Gaynor never mentions in his blog that the next version of his program didn't work on x64 - it hung and timed-out after 1 hour. Joseph La Fata contributed a Python pi-digits program the same week - his program worked first time on x86 and x64, on PyPy and CPython and Python 3 and only used ctypes to get to GMP. 2 days ago Joseph La Fata contributed a Python spectral-norm program - his program worked first time on x86 and x64 on PyPy and CPython and Python 3. Do you see the difference yet? What do you think the blog entry "My experience with Alex Gaynor" would be like?