7 ms·

I'd argue your first example is actually fair. Someone who has trouble negotiating in professional circles is going to have issues far beyond the workplace, if

I'd argue your first example is actually fair. Someone who has trouble negotiating in professional circles is going to have issues far beyond the workplace, if nothing else they're going to get repeatably screwed buying a car, and they should work on that. Why shouldn't the more aggressive, more strategic people earn more on average? I'd argue they give more of a damn by definition. The ability to project social force is a positive trait if used well, and can directly benefit the work if turned in that direction. By contrast I agree with your second example as systemic discrimination is something sharing salaries can directly help with. I had a female co-worker who was the same level of engineer I was at our company, had more experience and a Master's degree (to my Bachelor's), and was making 10k less a year than I was. Now I'm not sure if that was due to her being a woman or being rather conflict-avoidant (or both), but seeing the difference certainly made her push for a promotion that she eventually got.

woodruffw 6y ago
> Why shouldn't the more aggressive, more strategic people earn more on average? I'd argue they give more of a damn by definition. The ability to project social force is a positive trait if used well, and can directly benefit the work if turned in that direction. One potential reason: being aggressive and strategic, as qualities, are orthogonal to one's skills. They're just as good signals for being an abusive manager or manipulator as they are for "giving a damn." We've also gone and conflated "aggressive during salary negotiations" with "(positively) aggressive in one's job." It's not clear to me that these are the same things, particularly in the context of economic need and privation: I'm more likely to be aggressive and confident in my job once I know that I can afford groceries and rent. The "I" there is me, personally. In sum: the qualities that make someone a good negotiator in the context of obtaining a job are not necessarily positive qualities within the context of the job itself. Conflating the two eliminates an entire cohort of qualified people who may possess those traits but lack the systemic comfort to risk demonstrating them.
- 9935c101ab17a66 6y ago
  This is an incredibly well-written and well-written response.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Maybe I'm just an amateur, but this whole idea of negotiating your salary being some complex, strategic parlay--like you're brokering peace in the middle east--doesn't really match my experience with getting job offers. It's not like there are a lot of dimensions to bargain around. You get an offer from the company, and you can basically do one of three things: 1. Accept the offer 2. Walk away 3. Say "How about more compensation?" If you do 3, the company will either say: 3a) (95% of the time) "How about no?" or 3b) "How about this small amount more?" And from there you can accept or walk away and that's pretty much it. You can write the decision tree on a post-it note. What are people talking about when they say "aggressive and strategic"? Bang on the table more? Yell and scream? What are you captains of industry doing that the rest of us aren't? In my view, we are just workers--our only leverage is our willingness to walk away, which is usually fine with the company. They have a long line of candidates out the door.
  - tortasaur 6y ago
    If you just ask for more money, chances are the answer is going to be more. To successfully negotiate a higher salary, you generally have to point to some value you are delivering or will deliver that justifies the bump in compensation. "I want more money, please" isn't very persuasive.
  - scottLobster 6y ago
    No, it's a matter of knowing what you want and getting as close as possible to that objective rather than accepting what's initially offered (unless what's offered is already good enough). Mainly through convincing other people that you deserve it. Over the course of a career this behavior compounds into superior experience, superior interview performance (you have more examples to draw on/confidence in general), and secure enough position such that you have the ability to walk away. For example, your perspective of "they have a long line of candidates if you try to negotiate". That may be true but your name arrived at the top of the list somehow. The fact that you're getting an offer alone gives you some leverage, and small increases in salary can matter over time. There's always a range of salaries for a given position, why not convince them you deserve the top of that range? Maybe it's through actual experience, maybe it's just by reading their personalities and being likeable in the interview, but at least try the hand you're dealt. Granted this isn't always possible given an individual situation, but so many people simply throw away what leverage they have out of anxiety.
- scottLobster 6y ago
  True, but I'd argue "(positively) aggressive in one's job" directly affects one's ability to be "aggressive during salary negotiations". If you've just been laid off or are fresh out of college and "need" a job, then maybe being aggressive isn't worth the risk. But once you have an established career being positively aggressive on the job largely determines the opportunities that present themselves and the will/ability to exploit said opportunities. This in turn compounds into more favorable experience and a more secure position when applying for the next job. It's basically what the buzzword "leadership" is supposed to mean and why it's a buzzword in the first place. To your point, filtering for those traits does filter out a large cohort that may be qualified for the job, but a company is more than just the job they offer. Do you want a worker who does his 40 and goes home every week, or someone who might bring extra dynamism and productivity to the company on top of his 40, and is only asking for 5-10% more?
foogazi 6y ago
> but seeing the difference certainly made her push for a promotion that she eventually got. Wonder if a different colleague making 10k less had shared salary if she would still have pushed for the promotion ? Is there a lesson here?
TeaDrunk 6y ago
Statistically women ask for raises just as much and as aggressively as men, but they’re less likely to be granted. The idea that aggression is a skill recurved the same between men and women is very much false...
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  A quick search revealed only one study that said this, and a ton of studies that said the complete opposite. Oh, and articles showing faults in that one study. i.e. for masters students entering new jobs, men were 8x more likely to negotiate on salary.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    Could you show me that women receive raises when asking for them at the same rate as men?
solipsism 6y ago
Surprise! People have different definitions of what "fair" means in any given situation. It's completely arbitrary and subjective. The only thing that could be less interesting is describing one's dreams.
baddox 6y ago
> Someone who has trouble negotiating in professional circles is going to have issues far beyond the workplace, if nothing else they're going to get repeatably screwed buying a car, and they should work on that. How is that relevant to the person’s compensation for their work? Yes, negotiation might be a useful skill in other areas of life, but you might as well advocate paying people more for other useful skills that are irrelevant to their effectiveness at work, like changing a tire or home cooking.
kelnos 6y ago
> Why shouldn't the more aggressive, more strategic people earn more on average? Because being "aggressive" and "strategic" are not the only two qualities useful to providing value to an employer. Hell, depending on your role, being aggressive can be a negative.
- rjkennedy98 6y ago
  That’s not what he said and it’s obviously not the only reason someone gets paid - it’s just a reason one might get paid more. This is a classic straw man.
nathias 6y ago
do people like you believe their own lies?

woodruffw 6y ago

> Why shouldn't the more aggressive, more strategic people earn more on average? I'd argue they give more of a damn by definition. The ability to project social force is a positive trait if used well, and can directly benefit the work if turned in that direction. One potential reason: being aggressive and strategic, as qualities, are orthogonal to one's skills. They're just as good signals for being an abusive manager or manipulator as they are for "giving a damn." We've also gone and conflated "aggressive during salary negotiations" with "(positively) aggressive in one's job." It's not clear to me that these are the same things, particularly in the context of economic need and privation: I'm more likely to be aggressive and confident in my job once I know that I can afford groceries and rent. The "I" there is me, personally. In sum: the qualities that make someone a good negotiator in the context of obtaining a job are not necessarily positive qualities within the context of the job itself. Conflating the two eliminates an entire cohort of qualified people who may possess those traits but lack the systemic comfort to risk demonstrating them.

9935c101ab17a66 6y ago
This is an incredibly well-written and well-written response.
ryandrake 6y ago
Maybe I'm just an amateur, but this whole idea of negotiating your salary being some complex, strategic parlay--like you're brokering peace in the middle east--doesn't really match my experience with getting job offers. It's not like there are a lot of dimensions to bargain around. You get an offer from the company, and you can basically do one of three things: 1. Accept the offer 2. Walk away 3. Say "How about more compensation?" If you do 3, the company will either say: 3a) (95% of the time) "How about no?" or 3b) "How about this small amount more?" And from there you can accept or walk away and that's pretty much it. You can write the decision tree on a post-it note. What are people talking about when they say "aggressive and strategic"? Bang on the table more? Yell and scream? What are you captains of industry doing that the rest of us aren't? In my view, we are just workers--our only leverage is our willingness to walk away, which is usually fine with the company. They have a long line of candidates out the door.
- tortasaur 6y ago
  If you just ask for more money, chances are the answer is going to be more. To successfully negotiate a higher salary, you generally have to point to some value you are delivering or will deliver that justifies the bump in compensation. "I want more money, please" isn't very persuasive.
- scottLobster 6y ago
  No, it's a matter of knowing what you want and getting as close as possible to that objective rather than accepting what's initially offered (unless what's offered is already good enough). Mainly through convincing other people that you deserve it. Over the course of a career this behavior compounds into superior experience, superior interview performance (you have more examples to draw on/confidence in general), and secure enough position such that you have the ability to walk away. For example, your perspective of "they have a long line of candidates if you try to negotiate". That may be true but your name arrived at the top of the list somehow. The fact that you're getting an offer alone gives you some leverage, and small increases in salary can matter over time. There's always a range of salaries for a given position, why not convince them you deserve the top of that range? Maybe it's through actual experience, maybe it's just by reading their personalities and being likeable in the interview, but at least try the hand you're dealt. Granted this isn't always possible given an individual situation, but so many people simply throw away what leverage they have out of anxiety.
scottLobster 6y ago
True, but I'd argue "(positively) aggressive in one's job" directly affects one's ability to be "aggressive during salary negotiations". If you've just been laid off or are fresh out of college and "need" a job, then maybe being aggressive isn't worth the risk. But once you have an established career being positively aggressive on the job largely determines the opportunities that present themselves and the will/ability to exploit said opportunities. This in turn compounds into more favorable experience and a more secure position when applying for the next job. It's basically what the buzzword "leadership" is supposed to mean and why it's a buzzword in the first place. To your point, filtering for those traits does filter out a large cohort that may be qualified for the job, but a company is more than just the job they offer. Do you want a worker who does his 40 and goes home every week, or someone who might bring extra dynamism and productivity to the company on top of his 40, and is only asking for 5-10% more?

foogazi 6y ago

> but seeing the difference certainly made her push for a promotion that she eventually got. Wonder if a different colleague making 10k less had shared salary if she would still have pushed for the promotion ? Is there a lesson here?

TeaDrunk 6y ago

Statistically women ask for raises just as much and as aggressively as men, but they’re less likely to be granted. The idea that aggression is a skill recurved the same between men and women is very much false...

MaximumYComb 6y ago
A quick search revealed only one study that said this, and a ton of studies that said the complete opposite. Oh, and articles showing faults in that one study. i.e. for masters students entering new jobs, men were 8x more likely to negotiate on salary.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Could you show me that women receive raises when asking for them at the same rate as men?

solipsism 6y ago

Surprise! People have different definitions of what "fair" means in any given situation. It's completely arbitrary and subjective. The only thing that could be less interesting is describing one's dreams.

baddox 6y ago

> Someone who has trouble negotiating in professional circles is going to have issues far beyond the workplace, if nothing else they're going to get repeatably screwed buying a car, and they should work on that. How is that relevant to the person’s compensation for their work? Yes, negotiation might be a useful skill in other areas of life, but you might as well advocate paying people more for other useful skills that are irrelevant to their effectiveness at work, like changing a tire or home cooking.

kelnos 6y ago

> Why shouldn't the more aggressive, more strategic people earn more on average? Because being "aggressive" and "strategic" are not the only two qualities useful to providing value to an employer. Hell, depending on your role, being aggressive can be a negative.

rjkennedy98 6y ago
That’s not what he said and it’s obviously not the only reason someone gets paid - it’s just a reason one might get paid more. This is a classic straw man.

nathias 6y ago

do people like you believe their own lies?