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It's so ironic that mainstream opinions in the US are nowadays so ideologically charged that TikTok is assumed, without proof, to be 100% controlled by the Chin

It's so ironic that mainstream opinions in the US are nowadays so ideologically charged that TikTok is assumed, without proof, to be 100% controlled by the Chinese government and therefore this forced takeover is justified one way or another. You see arguments all the time that start with "CCP is evil, X is Chinese, therefore...", which would basically justify any and every action against all Chinese entities. Meanwhile, if you have even close to a clue about what's going on in China you'd know that ByteDance is bending over backwards trying to position itself as a multinational corporation with independence from the Chinese government, all in utter futility of course. That action actually drew the ire from the mouthpieces of the party. Some rumors say that the reason TikTok announced the potential deal so fast is to make it so that the Chinese government won't intervene and turn it into another Huawei situation. Well, that kind of reasoning seems to be based on a purely fictional assumption that the US government is still operating on principal or in good faith.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mattwest 6y ago
Can you elaborate on how ByteDance is trying to earn independence from the Chinese Gov? I'm genuinely just curious, to educate myself. From what I've read, they have a deep CCP governance and partnerships with Chinese state-owned media organizations.
- yurlungur 6y ago
  You can probably try to find the English version of the memo in this news here: https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3095822/bytedance-founder-understands-disagrees-us-conclusion-tiktok-must https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3095822/byteda... But in any case. I did not say ByteDance is substantially moving towards independence from the Chinese government (what does that even mean, should it disobey laws in the country it's operating in?) and I'm not privy to any inside information as to how tightly integrated it is with the party. I'm just saying that it is trying to position itself as such.
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    Really? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bytedance-filing/bytedance-unit-establishes-venture-with-chinese-state-media-firm-idUSKBN1YI099 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bytedance-filing/bytedanc...
nilkn 6y ago
What is TikTok doing, other than selling its international operations, that would prevent it from having to provide foreign users’ data to the Chinese government at their request?
- yurlungur 6y ago
  I think there could be some reasonable guardrails. For one, its servers could be fully hosted in the US (if it's not already the case today), and it could be subjugated to US laws and regulations that require user information be protected. Its data infrastructure and code could be audited and if found breaching such laws it could be punished accordingly. On a side note, neither Google or Facebook could comply with the Chinese law that require their servers to be hosted inside China. But I'm not saying that justifies TikTok's business in the US either.
  - shadowmore 6y ago
    But do we have laws requiring user data be protected? Aside from the new California law, we don't have anything like GDPR nationwide, do we?
    - yurlungur 6y ago
      Isn't that the onus of the US government and congress? Regardless, since TikTok is considered a potential national security risk, I'm sure plenty of existing laws would cover it if not others already.
  - tdfx 6y ago
    > and it could be subjugated to US laws and regulations that require user information be protected Do laws exist that prevent US companies from providing data to foreign law enforcement in the other countries where they operate? Because from my limited experience with Chinese passport holders, if the Ministry of State Security asks you to do something, you do it. Unless they're planning to remove admin access from every TikTok employee with a Chinese passport it doesn't really matter where the data is hosted.
Thorentis 6y ago
There is no way to prove beyond doubt that ByteDance isn't having their data watched by the CCP, or that the CCP won't forcibly take their data in the future. That's just part of dealing with a company based in a country like China. You don't need proof that ByteDance is controlled by the CCP. You just need to see the way CCP deals with companies in its country, and the powers they have over companies within their borders. Note: Yes, the US gov can do the same thing to US companies to some extent. But this about ByteDance and the CCP. And I think the assumption that you can't trust a Chinese based comapny (because of the CCP) is justified.
- est 6y ago
  > You don't need proof that ByteDance is controlled by the CCP Well, there is a counter proof. One of ByteDance's app (com.ss.android.essay.joke) was shutdown by CCP in 2018. Bytedance is a victim of governments bullies. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/china-toutiao-bytedance-censor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/china-toutiao-... > Vulgar content on the Neihan Duanzi app had “caused strong dislike among internet users,” a brief notice from the State Administration of Radio and Television said. The company was told to clean up its other platforms, too.
  - Craighead 6y ago
    Oh... which is it? CCP are bullies? or there's no proof they can be bullies?
  - buffin 6y ago
    That's actually not a counter proof. It shows that they couldn't stand up to the bully. We don't have to question the Tiktok leadership's intent, just the CCP's intent and its ability.
  - Thorentis 6y ago
    That... just shows that ByteDance will do what the CCP says. Which is exactly the problem being discussed here.
    - 6y ago
strogonoff 6y ago
> “CCP is evil, X is Chinese, therefore...” This may seem like a tragic misattribution, but I think the more widely this is understood the clearer it is how much of a pure practical liability an oppressive totalitarian regime is (in addition to the pure evilness of it in Carse’s infinite game sense). If you are trying to build a business not liable to be exploited by CCP, you have to build it elsewhere. Considering regime specifics, namely nonexistent freedoms and checks as far as government intervening in corporations’ private business, CCP can be pretty much considered a “parent company” of any business, and it has eroded trust in itself for some credible reasons.
- vladTheInhaler 6y ago
  And sadly, that might be the only practical way companies will be disincentivized from doing business with China. I sincerely hope that this happens, and then maybe China will be forced to show more respect for human rights and the rule of law, again not out of any fundamental change of heart, but purely for economic reasons.
microcolonel 6y ago
> TikTok is assumed, without proof, to be 100% controlled by the Chinese government All companies operating in China are 100% controlled by the Chinese government, because there is nothing the Chinese government is actually prevented from doing, and with regard to access to information, the PLA can essentially ask for anything for any reason without appeal. The legislature is more of a propaganda ritual than an actual legislature. One need not prove that TikTok is particularly controlled by the Chinese government.
- zaphirplane 6y ago
  All these arguments are strange, all companies operate within the law of the country they are in. All countries have an national security letters/demand Let’s call it as it is, Americans don’t want China to have there data, but meh not my problem for the Rest of the world when it comes to Facebook and Twitter data
nemothekid 6y ago
>Meanwhile, if you have even close to a clue about what's going on in China you'd know that ByteDance is bending over backwards trying to position itself as a multinational corporation with independence from the Chinese government This seems kind of tonedeaf to say when you consider what is happening to Hong Kong right now. Why should anyone believe that ByteDance, a mere 100B dollar company, can have independence from the CCP, when that same government is seemingly itching to have to tanks rolling down Hong Kong?
- undersuit 6y ago
  Position. Like I can position myself to have the starting pose of a master martial artist... and just be completely bluffing my further competence in whatever technique you're thinking of.
austhrow743 6y ago
>You see arguments all the time that start with "CCP is evil, X is Chinese, therefore...", which would basically justify any and every action against all Chinese entities. You know they're running concentration camps directly comparable to Nazi Germany right? Like they're mid-genocide right now. Yes any and every action against all Chinese entities is justified. Total economic blockade is the least the rest of the world should be doing.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mattwest 6y ago

Can you elaborate on how ByteDance is trying to earn independence from the Chinese Gov? I'm genuinely just curious, to educate myself. From what I've read, they have a deep CCP governance and partnerships with Chinese state-owned media organizations.

yurlungur 6y ago
You can probably try to find the English version of the memo in this news here: https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3095822/bytedance-founder-understands-disagrees-us-conclusion-tiktok-must https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3095822/byteda... But in any case. I did not say ByteDance is substantially moving towards independence from the Chinese government (what does that even mean, should it disobey laws in the country it's operating in?) and I'm not privy to any inside information as to how tightly integrated it is with the party. I'm just saying that it is trying to position itself as such.
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  Really? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bytedance-filing/bytedance-unit-establishes-venture-with-chinese-state-media-firm-idUSKBN1YI099 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bytedance-filing/bytedanc...

nilkn 6y ago

What is TikTok doing, other than selling its international operations, that would prevent it from having to provide foreign users’ data to the Chinese government at their request?

yurlungur 6y ago
I think there could be some reasonable guardrails. For one, its servers could be fully hosted in the US (if it's not already the case today), and it could be subjugated to US laws and regulations that require user information be protected. Its data infrastructure and code could be audited and if found breaching such laws it could be punished accordingly. On a side note, neither Google or Facebook could comply with the Chinese law that require their servers to be hosted inside China. But I'm not saying that justifies TikTok's business in the US either.
- shadowmore 6y ago
  But do we have laws requiring user data be protected? Aside from the new California law, we don't have anything like GDPR nationwide, do we?
  - yurlungur 6y ago
    Isn't that the onus of the US government and congress? Regardless, since TikTok is considered a potential national security risk, I'm sure plenty of existing laws would cover it if not others already.
- tdfx 6y ago
  > and it could be subjugated to US laws and regulations that require user information be protected Do laws exist that prevent US companies from providing data to foreign law enforcement in the other countries where they operate? Because from my limited experience with Chinese passport holders, if the Ministry of State Security asks you to do something, you do it. Unless they're planning to remove admin access from every TikTok employee with a Chinese passport it doesn't really matter where the data is hosted.

Thorentis 6y ago

There is no way to prove beyond doubt that ByteDance isn't having their data watched by the CCP, or that the CCP won't forcibly take their data in the future. That's just part of dealing with a company based in a country like China. You don't need proof that ByteDance is controlled by the CCP. You just need to see the way CCP deals with companies in its country, and the powers they have over companies within their borders. Note: Yes, the US gov can do the same thing to US companies to some extent. But this about ByteDance and the CCP. And I think the assumption that you can't trust a Chinese based comapny (because of the CCP) is justified.

est 6y ago
> You don't need proof that ByteDance is controlled by the CCP Well, there is a counter proof. One of ByteDance's app (com.ss.android.essay.joke) was shutdown by CCP in 2018. Bytedance is a victim of governments bullies. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/china-toutiao-bytedance-censor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/technology/china-toutiao-... > Vulgar content on the Neihan Duanzi app had “caused strong dislike among internet users,” a brief notice from the State Administration of Radio and Television said. The company was told to clean up its other platforms, too.
- Craighead 6y ago
  Oh... which is it? CCP are bullies? or there's no proof they can be bullies?
- buffin 6y ago
  That's actually not a counter proof. It shows that they couldn't stand up to the bully. We don't have to question the Tiktok leadership's intent, just the CCP's intent and its ability.
- Thorentis 6y ago
  That... just shows that ByteDance will do what the CCP says. Which is exactly the problem being discussed here.
  - 6y ago

strogonoff 6y ago

> “CCP is evil, X is Chinese, therefore...” This may seem like a tragic misattribution, but I think the more widely this is understood the clearer it is how much of a pure practical liability an oppressive totalitarian regime is (in addition to the pure evilness of it in Carse’s infinite game sense). If you are trying to build a business not liable to be exploited by CCP, you have to build it elsewhere. Considering regime specifics, namely nonexistent freedoms and checks as far as government intervening in corporations’ private business, CCP can be pretty much considered a “parent company” of any business, and it has eroded trust in itself for some credible reasons.

vladTheInhaler 6y ago
And sadly, that might be the only practical way companies will be disincentivized from doing business with China. I sincerely hope that this happens, and then maybe China will be forced to show more respect for human rights and the rule of law, again not out of any fundamental change of heart, but purely for economic reasons.

microcolonel 6y ago

> TikTok is assumed, without proof, to be 100% controlled by the Chinese government All companies operating in China are 100% controlled by the Chinese government, because there is nothing the Chinese government is actually prevented from doing, and with regard to access to information, the PLA can essentially ask for anything for any reason without appeal. The legislature is more of a propaganda ritual than an actual legislature. One need not prove that TikTok is particularly controlled by the Chinese government.

zaphirplane 6y ago
All these arguments are strange, all companies operate within the law of the country they are in. All countries have an national security letters/demand Let’s call it as it is, Americans don’t want China to have there data, but meh not my problem for the Rest of the world when it comes to Facebook and Twitter data

nemothekid 6y ago

>Meanwhile, if you have even close to a clue about what's going on in China you'd know that ByteDance is bending over backwards trying to position itself as a multinational corporation with independence from the Chinese government This seems kind of tonedeaf to say when you consider what is happening to Hong Kong right now. Why should anyone believe that ByteDance, a mere 100B dollar company, can have independence from the CCP, when that same government is seemingly itching to have to tanks rolling down Hong Kong?

undersuit 6y ago
Position. Like I can position myself to have the starting pose of a master martial artist... and just be completely bluffing my further competence in whatever technique you're thinking of.

austhrow743 6y ago

>You see arguments all the time that start with "CCP is evil, X is Chinese, therefore...", which would basically justify any and every action against all Chinese entities. You know they're running concentration camps directly comparable to Nazi Germany right? Like they're mid-genocide right now. Yes any and every action against all Chinese entities is justified. Total economic blockade is the least the rest of the world should be doing.