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A) You can dress to the nines without spending a fortune B) Dressing to the nines can work against you as a lawyer or litigant Source: I study jurors and coac

A) You can dress to the nines without spending a fortune B) Dressing to the nines can work against you as a lawyer or litigant Source: I study jurors and coach trial lawyers for a living, among other things.

rschneid 6y ago
Since you study this stuff, do you mind sharing a description of the kinds of situations in which the 'sharp appearance' or related type of tactic has a negative effect?
- rayiner 6y ago
  You don’t want to be a dressed to the nines Manhattan lawyer in a Texas courtroom (or really, anywhere but maybe Manhattan and Los Angeles). https://abovethelaw.com/2017/05/at-lunch-with-david-boies-20-years-after-his-departure-from-cravath/ https://abovethelaw.com/2017/05/at-lunch-with-david-boies-20... Re: David Boies (who is a prominent Manhattan attorney): > Part of the David Boies legend is his rejection of high fashion. He’s a millionaire many times over, and many aspects of his lifestyle reflect what I’m guessing is a nine-figure net worth — his primary residence, an 8,000-square-foot mansion on almost 10 acres; an $8 million pied-à-terre here in New York City, at the Sherry-Netherland Hotel; and a racing yacht, because you’re nobody until you have a yacht. But his wealth doesn’t go into his wardrobe. He eschews Prada and Patek Philippe in favor of navy blue suits from Sears or Lands’ End, inexpensive plastic wristwatches (worn over his sleeve), and what look like black sneakers (but are actually walking shoes by Merrell).
  - haecceity 6y ago
    To people who think the point of fashion is to imitate people with higher status, fashion loses its value if your name carries status for you.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Nobody on a jury knows David Boies, or any other lawyer, by reputation.
      - klyrs 6y ago
        But they can sure as hell read subtle social cues that occur between the lawyers and the judge. I'd reason that those cues have an outsized impact on how the jury rules.
      - perl4ever 6y ago
        I have been on a jury, and I do, so it's possible. He did represent Al Gore before the Supreme Court, although I suppose that's ancient history now. And he was involved in the SCO vs. Linux stuff.
      - JorgeGT 6y ago
        I'm not even American and I know him for his role in the Theranos affair...
      - rtpg 6y ago
        I mean... David Boies is a pretty famous lawyer! There is likely a huge amount of people who recognize the name, even if they don't know anything about the person. The guy has been on cover of magazines! Maybe _everyone_ on a jury is filtered out to only take people completely disconnected from society but.... probably not. (case in point: many people on this website are not in legal professions yet recognize the name)
        dungdang 6y ago
        talk about disconnected from society. a lot of people have seen him on a magazine or heard the name on the news. along with about 20 other names. every day. for decades. and the name is forgotten an hour later, with a thousand other names. as far as your point, the 1% of people here reading recognized the name. didn't know why, then googled and remembered. the jury is not here. it's '12 random people from the dmv,' and they don't recognize it, nor will they care to google it. they don't even know who steve jobs is, and won't google it on their iphone.
  - paultopia 6y ago
    I refuse to believe he wears sneaker-looking things in court...there are some very strict judges out there.
  - ajuc 6y ago
    At that point you're just showing off how many norms you can ignore.
- YetAnotherNick 6y ago
  I feel like humans are good in identifying privileged person and would like to think them different. If someone is dressing up perfectly but it is clear that the person is not rich/confident it will have negative effect than them dressing moderately. Some non rich born people are able to get in high societies but for most of us, it will be how you are born and raised.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  I’ve served on many juries. Defense attorneys usually put on a show to relate to you in some way. The prosecution usually looks like undertakers and usually appeal to the institution of justice, sacred duty as a citizen, etc. Just different flavors of bullshit.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    Why have you been on many juries?
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      Just guessing, but in some places there used to be automatic exemptions and substantially fewer people were eligible to be called so they had to serve more. Reforms expanded the pool, for instance in NY. From a 1996 NY Times article: "As of Jan. 1, all 27 former exemptions and disqualifications for jury duty in New York State have been repealed" "...as many as one-third of Long Island's residents have been exempt from jury duty because of their white-collar professions, particularly doctors, dentists and lawyers" https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/07/nyregion/exemptions-for-jury-duty-tightened.html https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/07/nyregion/exemptions-for-j...
    - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
      Jury duty nornally happens randomly
    - Spooky23 6y ago
      I live in New York, which has no exemptions. I suspect that having a last name early in the alphabet has some significance in my county as well, I’m called about every 4.5 years, starting the week after my 18th birthday. I’ve been selected about half of the time. Also, I’m fortunate to have a job where there is no financial penalty for service, I find it interesting, and I’m not comfortable hamming up some nonsense to avoid it. I’m always surprised I’m picked because of my job (lawyers don’t like engineers on juries), and I am friends or relatives with a bunch of attorneys and policemen.
      - 6y ago
wisty 6y ago
Maybe the clothes aren't there for the judge or jury, but for the clients. If a lawyer dresses to the nines and wins the case, the client will feel justified in paying their fees.
- Fezzik 6y ago
  Much of what attorneys do is for their client(s): win or lose, the client pays the bills. One of the attorneys I work against is extremely loud in court but seldom wins. Even so, all their clients love them, despite the fact that they are incompetent as a trial attorney. Because they present themselves as the belligerent television attorney that does always win, every time the lose they can just blame the court for getting it wrong. People are easily fooled.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    Law is as much about settling grievances, taking moral stands, and slinging "fuck you's" as much as it is about actual damages and money. Even if loud, angry lawyer guy doesn't win, dragging them to court and making them pay for a lawyer -- and then slinging vitriol at them in court -- has more emotional satisfaction than a dispassionate, slow, boring, go-nowhere hearing that ends with a moderate settlement. (note: in some places the loser pays all of the fees for the winner, so locality matters here)
    - Fezzik 6y ago
      Oh for sure. I consider myself lucky to be a salaried attorney with one government agency as a client since I don’t have to sing and dance to impress people. I can just do good work and achieve consistent results and everyone is happy. Really, what my comment should have said, is that much of what attorneys do is done to impress their clients and has very little to do with actually litigating whatever the issues are in a case.
badrabbit 6y ago
Who cares? It's not right! A hobo who hasn't showered in a decade should be able to argue his case, be heard and receive justice. Anything less, you're using rules to enforce a social order, the legal system has no relationship with justice if this is acceptable.
- onetimemanytime 6y ago
  >>A hobo who hasn't showered in a decade should be able to argue his case, be heard and receive justice. Anything less, you're using rules to enforce a social order, the legal system has no relationship with justice if this is acceptable. Should is they keyword and maybe one day we'll reach that point. Meanwhile, looks and appearance can make a huge difference, so why take the chance?
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    I agree, it's should. I am not saying take a chance but let's emphasize should, the way things are is wrong, period. Not worse, but wrong and incorrect and it should not be tolerated much like racism and msiogyny shouldn't have been tolerated in the past.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rocqua 6y ago
  To put it the most callous way I can, that's not very baseyian of you. How someone looks informs your prior probability of who they are. What they say informs your posterior probability, but you gotta take that prior into account when forming the posterior. At least, if you want 'accurate' statistics. (Bias - variance trade-off not withstanding, nor second-order effects of doing the 'correct' thing being possibly more detrimental than the advantage given by the 'correct' thing)
  - amznthrowaway5 6y ago
    But how strong is the effect? It's not just a binary judgement. People can heavily bias based on features that are borderline irrelevant. Also, you may end up hurting a lot of innocent people by generalizing too much based on some feature that is not causally associated with the actual crime, even if it predicts well overall. Are you comfortable applying this same bayesian logic to other factors like race?

rschneid 6y ago

Since you study this stuff, do you mind sharing a description of the kinds of situations in which the 'sharp appearance' or related type of tactic has a negative effect?

rayiner 6y ago
You don’t want to be a dressed to the nines Manhattan lawyer in a Texas courtroom (or really, anywhere but maybe Manhattan and Los Angeles). https://abovethelaw.com/2017/05/at-lunch-with-david-boies-20-years-after-his-departure-from-cravath/ https://abovethelaw.com/2017/05/at-lunch-with-david-boies-20... Re: David Boies (who is a prominent Manhattan attorney): > Part of the David Boies legend is his rejection of high fashion. He’s a millionaire many times over, and many aspects of his lifestyle reflect what I’m guessing is a nine-figure net worth — his primary residence, an 8,000-square-foot mansion on almost 10 acres; an $8 million pied-à-terre here in New York City, at the Sherry-Netherland Hotel; and a racing yacht, because you’re nobody until you have a yacht. But his wealth doesn’t go into his wardrobe. He eschews Prada and Patek Philippe in favor of navy blue suits from Sears or Lands’ End, inexpensive plastic wristwatches (worn over his sleeve), and what look like black sneakers (but are actually walking shoes by Merrell).
- haecceity 6y ago
  To people who think the point of fashion is to imitate people with higher status, fashion loses its value if your name carries status for you.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Nobody on a jury knows David Boies, or any other lawyer, by reputation.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      But they can sure as hell read subtle social cues that occur between the lawyers and the judge. I'd reason that those cues have an outsized impact on how the jury rules.
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      I have been on a jury, and I do, so it's possible. He did represent Al Gore before the Supreme Court, although I suppose that's ancient history now. And he was involved in the SCO vs. Linux stuff.
    - JorgeGT 6y ago
      I'm not even American and I know him for his role in the Theranos affair...
    - rtpg 6y ago
      I mean... David Boies is a pretty famous lawyer! There is likely a huge amount of people who recognize the name, even if they don't know anything about the person. The guy has been on cover of magazines! Maybe _everyone_ on a jury is filtered out to only take people completely disconnected from society but.... probably not. (case in point: many people on this website are not in legal professions yet recognize the name)
      - dungdang 6y ago
        talk about disconnected from society. a lot of people have seen him on a magazine or heard the name on the news. along with about 20 other names. every day. for decades. and the name is forgotten an hour later, with a thousand other names. as far as your point, the 1% of people here reading recognized the name. didn't know why, then googled and remembered. the jury is not here. it's '12 random people from the dmv,' and they don't recognize it, nor will they care to google it. they don't even know who steve jobs is, and won't google it on their iphone.
- paultopia 6y ago
  I refuse to believe he wears sneaker-looking things in court...there are some very strict judges out there.
- ajuc 6y ago
  At that point you're just showing off how many norms you can ignore.
YetAnotherNick 6y ago
I feel like humans are good in identifying privileged person and would like to think them different. If someone is dressing up perfectly but it is clear that the person is not rich/confident it will have negative effect than them dressing moderately. Some non rich born people are able to get in high societies but for most of us, it will be how you are born and raised.
Spooky23 6y ago
I’ve served on many juries. Defense attorneys usually put on a show to relate to you in some way. The prosecution usually looks like undertakers and usually appeal to the institution of justice, sacred duty as a citizen, etc. Just different flavors of bullshit.
- sukilot 6y ago
  Why have you been on many juries?
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    Just guessing, but in some places there used to be automatic exemptions and substantially fewer people were eligible to be called so they had to serve more. Reforms expanded the pool, for instance in NY. From a 1996 NY Times article: "As of Jan. 1, all 27 former exemptions and disqualifications for jury duty in New York State have been repealed" "...as many as one-third of Long Island's residents have been exempt from jury duty because of their white-collar professions, particularly doctors, dentists and lawyers" https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/07/nyregion/exemptions-for-jury-duty-tightened.html https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/07/nyregion/exemptions-for-j...
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    Jury duty nornally happens randomly
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    I live in New York, which has no exemptions. I suspect that having a last name early in the alphabet has some significance in my county as well, I’m called about every 4.5 years, starting the week after my 18th birthday. I’ve been selected about half of the time. Also, I’m fortunate to have a job where there is no financial penalty for service, I find it interesting, and I’m not comfortable hamming up some nonsense to avoid it. I’m always surprised I’m picked because of my job (lawyers don’t like engineers on juries), and I am friends or relatives with a bunch of attorneys and policemen.
    - 6y ago

wisty 6y ago

Maybe the clothes aren't there for the judge or jury, but for the clients. If a lawyer dresses to the nines and wins the case, the client will feel justified in paying their fees.

Fezzik 6y ago
Much of what attorneys do is for their client(s): win or lose, the client pays the bills. One of the attorneys I work against is extremely loud in court but seldom wins. Even so, all their clients love them, despite the fact that they are incompetent as a trial attorney. Because they present themselves as the belligerent television attorney that does always win, every time the lose they can just blame the court for getting it wrong. People are easily fooled.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  Law is as much about settling grievances, taking moral stands, and slinging "fuck you's" as much as it is about actual damages and money. Even if loud, angry lawyer guy doesn't win, dragging them to court and making them pay for a lawyer -- and then slinging vitriol at them in court -- has more emotional satisfaction than a dispassionate, slow, boring, go-nowhere hearing that ends with a moderate settlement. (note: in some places the loser pays all of the fees for the winner, so locality matters here)
  - Fezzik 6y ago
    Oh for sure. I consider myself lucky to be a salaried attorney with one government agency as a client since I don’t have to sing and dance to impress people. I can just do good work and achieve consistent results and everyone is happy. Really, what my comment should have said, is that much of what attorneys do is done to impress their clients and has very little to do with actually litigating whatever the issues are in a case.

badrabbit 6y ago

Who cares? It's not right! A hobo who hasn't showered in a decade should be able to argue his case, be heard and receive justice. Anything less, you're using rules to enforce a social order, the legal system has no relationship with justice if this is acceptable.

onetimemanytime 6y ago
>>A hobo who hasn't showered in a decade should be able to argue his case, be heard and receive justice. Anything less, you're using rules to enforce a social order, the legal system has no relationship with justice if this is acceptable. Should is they keyword and maybe one day we'll reach that point. Meanwhile, looks and appearance can make a huge difference, so why take the chance?
- badrabbit 6y ago
  I agree, it's should. I am not saying take a chance but let's emphasize should, the way things are is wrong, period. Not worse, but wrong and incorrect and it should not be tolerated much like racism and msiogyny shouldn't have been tolerated in the past.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rocqua 6y ago
To put it the most callous way I can, that's not very baseyian of you. How someone looks informs your prior probability of who they are. What they say informs your posterior probability, but you gotta take that prior into account when forming the posterior. At least, if you want 'accurate' statistics. (Bias - variance trade-off not withstanding, nor second-order effects of doing the 'correct' thing being possibly more detrimental than the advantage given by the 'correct' thing)
- amznthrowaway5 6y ago
  But how strong is the effect? It's not just a binary judgement. People can heavily bias based on features that are borderline irrelevant. Also, you may end up hurting a lot of innocent people by generalizing too much based on some feature that is not causally associated with the actual crime, even if it predicts well overall. Are you comfortable applying this same bayesian logic to other factors like race?