5 ms·

Aren't many of those benchmarks mostly comparing MKL vs OpenBLAS (the default BLAS library used)? Also, it's unlikely that Julia will handily beat the handwrit

Aren't many of those benchmarks mostly comparing MKL vs OpenBLAS (the default BLAS library used)? Also, it's unlikely that Julia will handily beat the handwritten, carefully optimized C-code in numpy. At that level, it isn't very much about the language but more about the programmers implementing the algorithms. A major selling point of Julia is that you will have fast code even in cases where the code doesn't neatly factor into calling static kernels written in e.g. C.

tastyminerals2 6y ago
But this is also true for any other statically typed language. Java/Scala/Kotlin/Go/Rust you name it. Pure Java has a good chance of outperforming a mix of Python and NumPy. So what's Julia's selling point? Being dynamic and fast? But it comes with some really nasty side effects. Up to the point that it is sometimes doesn't even make sense and Go compile & execute combo doesn't feel much slower. At this stage I can only see that it is the ecosystem which is hard to evaluate without investing into learning the language. However, I find it hard to believe that it is richer than Java or Python.
- eigenspace 6y ago
  > But this is also true for any other statically typed language. Java/Scala/Kotlin/Go/Rust you name it. Notice how none of those languages have a vibrant numerical computing ecosystem anywhere near Julia's despite being just as old or older than julia and being big, well known languages with large communities? It's almost like scientific programmers don't want to do science in those languages. I don't think it's an accident that Julia's package developers have been remarkably productive compared to Python. The best differnetial equations library available on Python right now is a wrapper for Julia's DifferentialEquations.jl. This is not because Python users don't care about differential equations or because there's not enough money or manpower. Chris Rackauckas did more on his own in julia for differential equation solving in his first couple years than entire industries did in Python over decades. Julia is a productive and performant language. When you hold up Java and Python, you're asking me to choose between productivity and performance (at best, obviously Python has serious productivity problems and Java has serious performance problems despite those being their touted strengths).
  - tastyminerals2 6y ago
    Come on. It's not like Julia has a PyTorch / TF equivalent (Flux.jl doesn't even come close, sorry). Until then, you can't seriously say that Julia's ecosystem is rich. Once we start seeing DL/ML papers coming out with POC written in Julia we can call it a day.
    - eigenspace 6y ago
      So you're disappointed that Mike Innes and a handful of other open source contributors haven't quite caught up yet with the efforts of Google and Facebook pouring billions of dollars into TensorFlow and PyTorch in pursuit of one of the most lucrative and hyped modern markets? Well, for that it depends on what you're into. For traditional, coding bootcamp machine learning, Flux.jl is still behind, but I'd point out that the only high performance, usable NeuralODE library is still built on Flux.jl and DifferentialEquations.jl as far as I understand and mostly consists of some import statements and a few function compositions / overloads. Someone already did deep learning on fully homomorphic encrypteded data using Flux.jl. Many 'niche', cutting edge things are still best done with Flux.jl because Flux is fundamentally more flexible than things like PyTorch and TensorFlow. It's using the entire programming language as a framework in a very generic way that PyTorch and Tensorflow can only ape by building ever more complex custom compilers and DSLs with ever diverging semantics from Python. If Flux.jl is an example of the Julia community's failures to compete I'd say we have very little to worry about, and I look forward to seeing what a well funded commercial entity could build in Julia with a few billion dollars.
      - tastyminerals2 6y ago
        Consider me a curious client who trains and deploys production models on a weekly basis and considers Julia. Well even if I could rewrite our model in Julia how would I go with prod deployment and who would help me if I get stuck? For Tensorflow, I can use Java API and effortlessly plug in trained model into our Java stack. In case of PyTorch we can bring up a Python service with the same little effort just because Python has it all. When it comes to work, niche languages lose their ground once you start digging deeper and attempt to venture slightly outside their focus domain. They do not have dedicated teams or industrial money and will always lag behind. Look at DL4J, they have a whole company working on it for many years. Of course time will tell but considering the results so far I am not convinced that investing time into learning a new language will pay off. Especially considering Julia interop with C/C++.

tastyminerals2 6y ago

But this is also true for any other statically typed language. Java/Scala/Kotlin/Go/Rust you name it. Pure Java has a good chance of outperforming a mix of Python and NumPy. So what's Julia's selling point? Being dynamic and fast? But it comes with some really nasty side effects. Up to the point that it is sometimes doesn't even make sense and Go compile & execute combo doesn't feel much slower. At this stage I can only see that it is the ecosystem which is hard to evaluate without investing into learning the language. However, I find it hard to believe that it is richer than Java or Python.

eigenspace 6y ago
> But this is also true for any other statically typed language. Java/Scala/Kotlin/Go/Rust you name it. Notice how none of those languages have a vibrant numerical computing ecosystem anywhere near Julia's despite being just as old or older than julia and being big, well known languages with large communities? It's almost like scientific programmers don't want to do science in those languages. I don't think it's an accident that Julia's package developers have been remarkably productive compared to Python. The best differnetial equations library available on Python right now is a wrapper for Julia's DifferentialEquations.jl. This is not because Python users don't care about differential equations or because there's not enough money or manpower. Chris Rackauckas did more on his own in julia for differential equation solving in his first couple years than entire industries did in Python over decades. Julia is a productive and performant language. When you hold up Java and Python, you're asking me to choose between productivity and performance (at best, obviously Python has serious productivity problems and Java has serious performance problems despite those being their touted strengths).
- tastyminerals2 6y ago
  Come on. It's not like Julia has a PyTorch / TF equivalent (Flux.jl doesn't even come close, sorry). Until then, you can't seriously say that Julia's ecosystem is rich. Once we start seeing DL/ML papers coming out with POC written in Julia we can call it a day.
  - eigenspace 6y ago
    So you're disappointed that Mike Innes and a handful of other open source contributors haven't quite caught up yet with the efforts of Google and Facebook pouring billions of dollars into TensorFlow and PyTorch in pursuit of one of the most lucrative and hyped modern markets? Well, for that it depends on what you're into. For traditional, coding bootcamp machine learning, Flux.jl is still behind, but I'd point out that the only high performance, usable NeuralODE library is still built on Flux.jl and DifferentialEquations.jl as far as I understand and mostly consists of some import statements and a few function compositions / overloads. Someone already did deep learning on fully homomorphic encrypteded data using Flux.jl. Many 'niche', cutting edge things are still best done with Flux.jl because Flux is fundamentally more flexible than things like PyTorch and TensorFlow. It's using the entire programming language as a framework in a very generic way that PyTorch and Tensorflow can only ape by building ever more complex custom compilers and DSLs with ever diverging semantics from Python. If Flux.jl is an example of the Julia community's failures to compete I'd say we have very little to worry about, and I look forward to seeing what a well funded commercial entity could build in Julia with a few billion dollars.
    - tastyminerals2 6y ago
      Consider me a curious client who trains and deploys production models on a weekly basis and considers Julia. Well even if I could rewrite our model in Julia how would I go with prod deployment and who would help me if I get stuck? For Tensorflow, I can use Java API and effortlessly plug in trained model into our Java stack. In case of PyTorch we can bring up a Python service with the same little effort just because Python has it all. When it comes to work, niche languages lose their ground once you start digging deeper and attempt to venture slightly outside their focus domain. They do not have dedicated teams or industrial money and will always lag behind. Look at DL4J, they have a whole company working on it for many years. Of course time will tell but considering the results so far I am not convinced that investing time into learning a new language will pay off. Especially considering Julia interop with C/C++.