7 ms·

Less than 48 hours after that video was published, OpenRCT2 patched their pathfinding algorithm to not prefer some directions more than others: https://www.yout

by mxwsn 6y ago

Less than 48 hours after that video was published, OpenRCT2 patched their pathfinding algorithm to not prefer some directions more than others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-5aX2oLOgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-5aX2oLOgU. The GitHub commit message says it was just to mess up MarcelVos, the videomaker

SwiftyBug 6y ago
I found it very funny: https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546 https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546
- jansan 6y ago
  It actually is funny.
  - SwiftyBug 6y ago
    Indeed!
- infogulch 6y ago
  It's always so wholesome when devs interact positively with 'exploit hunter' types. I wonder why it feels like that.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    Probably something to do with the "status games" definition of friendship from Impro. Friendly ribbing in a faux-antagonistic relationship may also come off as really healthy-looking, comfortable, and pleasant, for similar reasons, namely that you can't do that safely with people you aren't on good and (at least in some confined sense) equal terms with. So from the outside it's like vicariously being part of the everyday intimacy of a friendship.
    - infogulch 6y ago
      I like this perspective. It acknowledges that they are equal at least in that they both care about the game and express that by paying attention to all of its detail, even small defects.
  - fsniper 6y ago
    Maybe because "exploit hunter" types are in fact doing QA for the developer?
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  And this comment both explains why it's the way it is, and proposes an improvement: For solving mazes, here's the most popular algorithm: Touch the wall or hedge with the hand nearest to it, left or right. Keep that same hand touching the wall and keep walking. This may take you on a horribly long route, but it will eventually get you out. [...] Rather than doing complete randomness when choosing directions, I think it would be actually better to assign an strategy for each player (once they enter the attraction), setting their default direction to "always clockwise" (as it was before this PR) or "always counter-clockwise". https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment-668259847 https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment...
  - ben509 6y ago
    It is a popular algorithm, especially because it's stateless, but it only works if the maze is simply connected, so a simple loop can cause it to fail. A simple mechanism that would also make it more interesting would be for wall following to flip handedness at random intervals. That is, the guest would start off by following the wall with his left hand, and then after some random number of steps, start following with his right hand.
    - kd5bjo 6y ago
      > It is a popular algorithm, especially because it's stateless, but it only works if the maze is simply connected, so a simple loop can cause it to fail. If we’re talking about mazes where the entrance and exit are both on the perimeter wall, those points must be connected by that wall and the algorithm is guaranteed to be successful.
      - OJFord 6y ago
        I think GP meant if there's an island in the middle, it won't work following that. But if you start from the entrance, it's fine.
        mcv 6y ago
atq2119 6y ago
That change still leaves a small bias in the case where there are 3 directions to choose from. The effect is presumably small (I don't know how many bits are produced by scenario_rand()), but it would be assuming to try to figure out the maximum maze bias that is possible to extract from this.
fossuser 6y ago
I was kind of hoping they'd change it to have an easter egg, if it determines it's likely in a left only hedge maze the path finding cheats and just walks to the exit.
foota 6y ago
It would be interesting maybe to design a system where people deviate a random amount from the optimal path.
MauranKilom 6y ago
According to Youtube recommending a newer video by the same author, you can still build impossible mazes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-5aX2oLOgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-5aX2oLOgU
- Taek 6y ago
  For a proper fix they would probably want the guest to remember places they had been previously and bias against those places.
  - egypturnash 6y ago
    There's a suggested fix for just this on the Github discussion. https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment-668281428 https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment... According to their quick test, this will definitely result in guests solving mazes a lot faster.
    - bscphil 6y ago
      This approach appears to do something different, which is allow the guests to cheat - it relies on information a real maze solver would not have, including how close a tile is to the exit.
      - Taek 6y ago
        Not going to break immersion for me if guests are casually cheating. It's nice to see: 1. guests wandering around randomly - every part of the maze is regularly visited if the maze is busy 2. guests being not hopeless at actually solving mazes If the guest makes progress opaquely by sometimes cheating, I'm really not going to notice as a player. On the other hand, some of the other solutions presented here (like using the left hand rule) would make the mazes a lot less interesting to watch.
        bscphil 6y ago
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Oh, I didn't realize this was OpenRCT2, rather than the original RCT2. Do we know if the original game has this same oddity?
- simcop2387 6y ago
  According to the next video from the youtuber, ye sit does.
- laumars 6y ago
  I didn’t even know OpenRCT2 was a thing. I wish I’d discovered that at the start of the pandemic! I loved Transport Tycoon and have clocked up nearly as many hours on OpenTTD as I had on the original DOS game. I did also have RCT but sadly never had the time to play it as much when it was new.

by mxwsn 6y ago

SwiftyBug 6y ago

I found it very funny: https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546 https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546

jansan 6y ago
It actually is funny.
- SwiftyBug 6y ago
  Indeed!
infogulch 6y ago
It's always so wholesome when devs interact positively with 'exploit hunter' types. I wonder why it feels like that.
- spanhandler 6y ago
  Probably something to do with the "status games" definition of friendship from Impro. Friendly ribbing in a faux-antagonistic relationship may also come off as really healthy-looking, comfortable, and pleasant, for similar reasons, namely that you can't do that safely with people you aren't on good and (at least in some confined sense) equal terms with. So from the outside it's like vicariously being part of the everyday intimacy of a friendship.
  - infogulch 6y ago
    I like this perspective. It acknowledges that they are equal at least in that they both care about the game and express that by paying attention to all of its detail, even small defects.
- fsniper 6y ago
  Maybe because "exploit hunter" types are in fact doing QA for the developer?
9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
And this comment both explains why it's the way it is, and proposes an improvement: For solving mazes, here's the most popular algorithm: Touch the wall or hedge with the hand nearest to it, left or right. Keep that same hand touching the wall and keep walking. This may take you on a horribly long route, but it will eventually get you out. [...] Rather than doing complete randomness when choosing directions, I think it would be actually better to assign an strategy for each player (once they enter the attraction), setting their default direction to "always clockwise" (as it was before this PR) or "always counter-clockwise". https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment-668259847 https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment...
- ben509 6y ago
  It is a popular algorithm, especially because it's stateless, but it only works if the maze is simply connected, so a simple loop can cause it to fail. A simple mechanism that would also make it more interesting would be for wall following to flip handedness at random intervals. That is, the guest would start off by following the wall with his left hand, and then after some random number of steps, start following with his right hand.
  - kd5bjo 6y ago
    > It is a popular algorithm, especially because it's stateless, but it only works if the maze is simply connected, so a simple loop can cause it to fail. If we’re talking about mazes where the entrance and exit are both on the perimeter wall, those points must be connected by that wall and the algorithm is guaranteed to be successful.
    - OJFord 6y ago
      I think GP meant if there's an island in the middle, it won't work following that. But if you start from the entrance, it's fine.
      - mcv 6y ago

atq2119 6y ago

That change still leaves a small bias in the case where there are 3 directions to choose from. The effect is presumably small (I don't know how many bits are produced by scenario_rand()), but it would be assuming to try to figure out the maximum maze bias that is possible to extract from this.

fossuser 6y ago

I was kind of hoping they'd change it to have an easter egg, if it determines it's likely in a left only hedge maze the path finding cheats and just walks to the exit.

foota 6y ago

It would be interesting maybe to design a system where people deviate a random amount from the optimal path.

MauranKilom 6y ago

According to Youtube recommending a newer video by the same author, you can still build impossible mazes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-5aX2oLOgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-5aX2oLOgU

Taek 6y ago
For a proper fix they would probably want the guest to remember places they had been previously and bias against those places.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  There's a suggested fix for just this on the Github discussion. https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment-668281428 https://github.com/OpenRCT2/OpenRCT2/pull/12546#issuecomment... According to their quick test, this will definitely result in guests solving mazes a lot faster.
  - bscphil 6y ago
    This approach appears to do something different, which is allow the guests to cheat - it relies on information a real maze solver would not have, including how close a tile is to the exit.
    - Taek 6y ago
      Not going to break immersion for me if guests are casually cheating. It's nice to see: 1. guests wandering around randomly - every part of the maze is regularly visited if the maze is busy 2. guests being not hopeless at actually solving mazes If the guest makes progress opaquely by sometimes cheating, I'm really not going to notice as a player. On the other hand, some of the other solutions presented here (like using the left hand rule) would make the mazes a lot less interesting to watch.
      - bscphil 6y ago

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Oh, I didn't realize this was OpenRCT2, rather than the original RCT2. Do we know if the original game has this same oddity?

simcop2387 6y ago
According to the next video from the youtuber, ye sit does.
laumars 6y ago
I didn’t even know OpenRCT2 was a thing. I wish I’d discovered that at the start of the pandemic! I loved Transport Tycoon and have clocked up nearly as many hours on OpenTTD as I had on the original DOS game. I did also have RCT but sadly never had the time to play it as much when it was new.