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> Those are considered illegitimate since they are undemocratic. But these are voluntary structures? That's kind of the beauty of the free market. You have the

> Those are considered illegitimate since they are undemocratic. But these are voluntary structures? That's kind of the beauty of the free market. You have these little monarchal structures that go out and create something in the world. If people want to join they can. If and when these structures become too dysfunctional they go away due to market forces.

jahaja 6y ago
> But these are voluntary structures? They're not. No free person would voluntary accept all kinds of shit jobs that's out there unless indirectly coerced.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  By "indirectly coerced" you mean that they need food and shelter and they don't have slaves to grow their food and build their house for them?
  - jahaja 6y ago
    > By "indirectly coerced" you mean that they need food and shelter Yes, and more. > and they don't have slaves to grow their food and build their house for them? Is this the level you sink to as soon as Capitalist dogma is questioned? It's not the poor and workers that have servants in modern society.
    - googthrowaway42 6y ago
      It's not dogma to suggest that people want to be compensated for building houses and growing food and won't do that for free unless a gun is put to their head.
      - jahaja 6y ago
        Of course it is. Assuming that the only other option to Capitalism is slavery is dogma.
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        You're using the word Capitalism as though it's representative of an ideology. "Capitalism" is a term created by Marxists to describe a system that allows people to freely exchange with one another without force. No one is going to grow your food or build you a house without compensation. That's why Marxism requires slavery (public slavery).
        jahaja 6y ago
        You're clearly ignorant of left-wing theory. You actually think that the huge sympathy that socialism had and still have is based on people not understanding that it's actually slavery? A no compensation society? Come on.
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        I mean there's a reason these sorts of programs always end with mass murder and suffering. Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it legitimate. Lots of people followed the Soviet and Nazi programs and it created human suffering on a level never seen before in human history. You really should read Human Action by Mises. It lays out on a philosophical level why all this stuff is fundamentally irrational and necessarily leads to mass human suffering.
        jahaja 6y ago
        Sigh. 99% of socialist want to expand democracy, not establish another dictatorship. Yet, people like yourself dogmatically focus on that other 1% that are authoritarian and paint every socialist as such. 71k people die every year in the US due to lack of healthcare. You need to open both eyes. I should read a book by the some libertarian god that unsurprisingly dismisses socialism, while your own knowledge about socialism is obviously paperthin? If it's so clear and obvious then you should be able to explain it in a paragraph or two?

jahaja 6y ago

> But these are voluntary structures? They're not. No free person would voluntary accept all kinds of shit jobs that's out there unless indirectly coerced.

googthrowaway42 6y ago
By "indirectly coerced" you mean that they need food and shelter and they don't have slaves to grow their food and build their house for them?
- jahaja 6y ago
  > By "indirectly coerced" you mean that they need food and shelter Yes, and more. > and they don't have slaves to grow their food and build their house for them? Is this the level you sink to as soon as Capitalist dogma is questioned? It's not the poor and workers that have servants in modern society.
  - googthrowaway42 6y ago
    It's not dogma to suggest that people want to be compensated for building houses and growing food and won't do that for free unless a gun is put to their head.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      Of course it is. Assuming that the only other option to Capitalism is slavery is dogma.
      - googthrowaway42 6y ago
        You're using the word Capitalism as though it's representative of an ideology. "Capitalism" is a term created by Marxists to describe a system that allows people to freely exchange with one another without force. No one is going to grow your food or build you a house without compensation. That's why Marxism requires slavery (public slavery).
        jahaja 6y ago
        You're clearly ignorant of left-wing theory. You actually think that the huge sympathy that socialism had and still have is based on people not understanding that it's actually slavery? A no compensation society? Come on.
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        I mean there's a reason these sorts of programs always end with mass murder and suffering. Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it legitimate. Lots of people followed the Soviet and Nazi programs and it created human suffering on a level never seen before in human history. You really should read Human Action by Mises. It lays out on a philosophical level why all this stuff is fundamentally irrational and necessarily leads to mass human suffering.
        jahaja 6y ago
        Sigh. 99% of socialist want to expand democracy, not establish another dictatorship. Yet, people like yourself dogmatically focus on that other 1% that are authoritarian and paint every socialist as such. 71k people die every year in the US due to lack of healthcare. You need to open both eyes. I should read a book by the some libertarian god that unsurprisingly dismisses socialism, while your own knowledge about socialism is obviously paperthin? If it's so clear and obvious then you should be able to explain it in a paragraph or two?