3 ms·

Is it enough that a few people like this simply turn their backs and walk away to different work? I would think their vacancies would be quickly and easily fill

by jccc 6y ago

Is it enough that a few people like this simply turn their backs and walk away to different work? I would think their vacancies would be quickly and easily filled. Is there really a shortage of people willing and able to do this kind of work for these companies and government agencies? I'm asking because I truly don't know. And if not, could we think of some other ways people in these positions could exert some influence for change, even if it's only after they leave those jobs?

mellow2020 6y ago
You can't change rape by being a good rapist. All that serves IMO is to normalize being an accomplice and doing evil things with good intentions. > People have a series of rationalizations. People say for example that science and technology have their own logic, that they are in fact autonomous. This particular rationalization is profoundly false. It is not true that science marches on in defiance of human will, independent of human will, that just is not the case. But it is comfortable, as I said: it leads to the position that "if I don't do it, someone else will." > Of course if one takes that as an ethical principle then obviously it can serve as a license to do anything at all. "People will be murdered; if I don't do it, someone else will." "Women will be raped; if I don't do it, someone else will." That is just a license for violence. - http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html
- TallGuyShort 6y ago
  If a rapist stops being a rapist, does someone immediately turn around and pay someone else to become a rapist? No? Then the rape analogy isn't a perfect fit. The question is still valid, IMO.
- dang 6y ago
  Would you please stop posting generic ideological comments to HN? It looks like you've been doing it repeatedly. It's against the site guidelines because it leads to repetitive threads which are tedious at best and nasty at worst. This site is supposed to be for curious conversation and those things are not compatible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - mellow2020 6y ago
    > Would you please stop posting generic ideological comments to HN? If you explain to me how the comment I replied to isn't just as generic, and what you mean by "ideological" that is present in my comment and not in the parent, sure. You allow a claim, coated in "wondering", an old chestnut trotted out time and time again -- and don't the clear refuting of it, by one of the greats in the field? There are no principles here you are applying fairly, it's utterly arbitrary. My point stands. Graying it out just adds the data that some people would rather bury and smear it, than learn. That's on them. And no, it doesn't lead to any conversation of any kind, because agreement is expressed in upvotes, and I doubt anyone can muster a coherent rebuttal. I don't see you trying either, you just say what would have happened, if you hadn't made replying impossible. Weizenbaum is correct, and apparently, some people cannot let that stand. > It's against the site guidelines because it leads to repetitive threads which are tedious at best and nasty at worst. Which part of them? > This site is supposed to be for curious conversation and those things are not compatible. Saying "it" and "those things" doesn't make up for a clear definition of them.
    - dang 6y ago
      Actually I missed that you were linking to a 1985 article by Weizenbaum. I agree, that's more interesting. Had I seen that I probably wouldn't have replied to you here. On the other hand: (1) "You can't change rape by being a good rapist" is just flamebait. Please don't. (2) Your account has mostly been posting in ideological arguments and it all looks pretty generic to me. Please don't do that either. If you want an explanation about why we don't want generic discussion on HN, and above all not generic ideological discussion, there are plenty at these links: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20ideolog&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
    - jccc 6y ago
      (For whatever it's worth, I was sincerely wondering because I don't know what the actual labor constraints on these companies/agencies might be. I suspected they aren't enough to make much of a difference when developers walk away in protest, and so I asked.) (Also, I think it was clear that I was questioning strategy not morality.)
jpollock 6y ago
Yes it has an effect. In a tight labour market, any restriction on the number of people who are willing to do your work will increase your costs. Eventually, you might start to ask "why" and change some things to bring the costs back in line. For example, I know lots of people (including me), who refused interviews with Uber post harassment revelations.
- jccc 6y ago
  I understand that in principle it could have an effect, and I understand how. I'm questioning whether that market for developers really is tight enough to matter, whether employers and top policy makers would even notice that some number of people withhold their skills in protest. I'm wondering if perhaps there are other more powerful ways for these developers to exert their influence, whether in these positions or outside of them.
  - jpollock 6y ago
    That would be an interesting research paper, particularly if it was able to quantify the effect of various blows to a companies reputation. "The effect of corporate reputation on staffing costs"? A quick googling implies "yes"? https://www.igniyte.co.uk/blog/how-a-bad-corporate-reputation-can-affect-recruitment/#:~:text=Reputation%20effects,to%20work%20by%20potential%20candidates https://www.igniyte.co.uk/blog/how-a-bad-corporate-reputatio....
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    I was under the impression that lack of talent does matter- if top talent doesn't want to work for you, you can't replace top talent with less-top talent and expect to maintain your competitive edge. Especially if said top talent is now working for a competitor.
7ArcticSealz 6y ago
There's a saying in showbiz that applies equally well to job vacancies: "there's an a*s for every seat"

by jccc 6y ago

mellow2020 6y ago

You can't change rape by being a good rapist. All that serves IMO is to normalize being an accomplice and doing evil things with good intentions. > People have a series of rationalizations. People say for example that science and technology have their own logic, that they are in fact autonomous. This particular rationalization is profoundly false. It is not true that science marches on in defiance of human will, independent of human will, that just is not the case. But it is comfortable, as I said: it leads to the position that "if I don't do it, someone else will." > Of course if one takes that as an ethical principle then obviously it can serve as a license to do anything at all. "People will be murdered; if I don't do it, someone else will." "Women will be raped; if I don't do it, someone else will." That is just a license for violence. - http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html

TallGuyShort 6y ago
If a rapist stops being a rapist, does someone immediately turn around and pay someone else to become a rapist? No? Then the rape analogy isn't a perfect fit. The question is still valid, IMO.
dang 6y ago
Would you please stop posting generic ideological comments to HN? It looks like you've been doing it repeatedly. It's against the site guidelines because it leads to repetitive threads which are tedious at best and nasty at worst. This site is supposed to be for curious conversation and those things are not compatible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mellow2020 6y ago
  > Would you please stop posting generic ideological comments to HN? If you explain to me how the comment I replied to isn't just as generic, and what you mean by "ideological" that is present in my comment and not in the parent, sure. You allow a claim, coated in "wondering", an old chestnut trotted out time and time again -- and don't the clear refuting of it, by one of the greats in the field? There are no principles here you are applying fairly, it's utterly arbitrary. My point stands. Graying it out just adds the data that some people would rather bury and smear it, than learn. That's on them. And no, it doesn't lead to any conversation of any kind, because agreement is expressed in upvotes, and I doubt anyone can muster a coherent rebuttal. I don't see you trying either, you just say what would have happened, if you hadn't made replying impossible. Weizenbaum is correct, and apparently, some people cannot let that stand. > It's against the site guidelines because it leads to repetitive threads which are tedious at best and nasty at worst. Which part of them? > This site is supposed to be for curious conversation and those things are not compatible. Saying "it" and "those things" doesn't make up for a clear definition of them.
  - dang 6y ago
    Actually I missed that you were linking to a 1985 article by Weizenbaum. I agree, that's more interesting. Had I seen that I probably wouldn't have replied to you here. On the other hand: (1) "You can't change rape by being a good rapist" is just flamebait. Please don't. (2) Your account has mostly been posting in ideological arguments and it all looks pretty generic to me. Please don't do that either. If you want an explanation about why we don't want generic discussion on HN, and above all not generic ideological discussion, there are plenty at these links: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20ideolog&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - jccc 6y ago
    (For whatever it's worth, I was sincerely wondering because I don't know what the actual labor constraints on these companies/agencies might be. I suspected they aren't enough to make much of a difference when developers walk away in protest, and so I asked.) (Also, I think it was clear that I was questioning strategy not morality.)

jpollock 6y ago

Yes it has an effect. In a tight labour market, any restriction on the number of people who are willing to do your work will increase your costs. Eventually, you might start to ask "why" and change some things to bring the costs back in line. For example, I know lots of people (including me), who refused interviews with Uber post harassment revelations.

jccc 6y ago
I understand that in principle it could have an effect, and I understand how. I'm questioning whether that market for developers really is tight enough to matter, whether employers and top policy makers would even notice that some number of people withhold their skills in protest. I'm wondering if perhaps there are other more powerful ways for these developers to exert their influence, whether in these positions or outside of them.
- jpollock 6y ago
  That would be an interesting research paper, particularly if it was able to quantify the effect of various blows to a companies reputation. "The effect of corporate reputation on staffing costs"? A quick googling implies "yes"? https://www.igniyte.co.uk/blog/how-a-bad-corporate-reputation-can-affect-recruitment/#:~:text=Reputation%20effects,to%20work%20by%20potential%20candidates https://www.igniyte.co.uk/blog/how-a-bad-corporate-reputatio....
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  I was under the impression that lack of talent does matter- if top talent doesn't want to work for you, you can't replace top talent with less-top talent and expect to maintain your competitive edge. Especially if said top talent is now working for a competitor.

7ArcticSealz 6y ago

There's a saying in showbiz that applies equally well to job vacancies: "there's an a*s for every seat"