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I have to agree with this. It took us (massify.com) forever to find talent. NYC has an agency mindset which doesn't work in a startup environment. So you hir

by jawngee 18y ago

I have to agree with this. It took us (massify.com) forever to find talent. NYC has an agency mindset which doesn't work in a startup environment. So you hire people from razorfish, digitas, r/ga, etc. but they're expecting the same 9-5 lifestyle and have a hard time adjusting.

iron_ball 18y ago
So, by "not the same 9-5 lifestyle," what do you mean? I would hesitate to put words in your mouth, but please tell me the startup lifestyle you have in mind, and whether it is of equal quality. I'm going to give you a handicap, though: You cannot use the concept of "doing something you love," because you cannot require that your employees love it as much as you, or you'll find nobody at all.
- jawngee 18y ago
  I mean self-starting, self-organizing out of the box thinkers that can deal with the chaos of an early stage start-up. My experience is that a lot of agency people have a lot of problems coping in environments without a lot of process, nor are they inclined to feel ownership. There is no sense of equal quality when comparing the lifestyle of a startup to that of working at an agency (of which I have 10+ years experience working in). At an agency, there are people above you and people below you and despite whatever flaws in the process that the agency has, it at least has one. Figure that most early stages are typically 3-4 people. Process isn't as important as this stage as getting stuff done and getting stuff out. In fact, an intricate involved process at this point would do more damage than good. At 5-10 people, process starts becoming important, but that process must be devised amongst the people in the company. Most agency people we've had come work at Massify during this period had a hard time adjusting as we attempt to soothe the chaos. It takes a fairly rare blend of ambition and drive to succeed in a startup at this point. And, btw, if you're handing out equity, they sure as shit better love it or they should really move on. They needn't love it as much as I do, nor do I expect that from them, but they better have some affection for it or they should hit the road. When things get grim, it's this certain love or passion for the product that carries you through.
  - aditya 18y ago
    yeah! agencies are the other source of stupid 'web developers', and there are a LOT of agencies in New York being the ad capital and what not.
  - Tamerlin 18y ago
    I've worked in such environments, and as much as I enjoyed the work when I was able to do it, the reality was that we wound up wasting a lot of time spinning our wheels because we accidentally stepped on each other toes. As a result, I wasn't able to do the work I wanted to do, and was hired to do, most of the time that I was there. So the affection wore off, and I gave up and left once I saw the writing on the wall. I've also worked in companies of 3-4 people (including me) that had basic processes (source control, requirements management, etc), and the results were FAR better. We ended up spending MORE time doing our job, not less. We also spent a LOT less time cleaning up messes and wondering why we acquired 15 build errors every time we synced the code from source control. Though I agree that a small group doesn't require a lot of process, chaos is counter productive.
Tamerlin 18y ago
You're the one who has it wrong. You're just having trouble finding people willing to sacrifice their lives for their jobs, and those aren't the people you want working for you anyway.

by jawngee 18y ago

iron_ball 18y ago

So, by "not the same 9-5 lifestyle," what do you mean? I would hesitate to put words in your mouth, but please tell me the startup lifestyle you have in mind, and whether it is of equal quality. I'm going to give you a handicap, though: You cannot use the concept of "doing something you love," because you cannot require that your employees love it as much as you, or you'll find nobody at all.

jawngee 18y ago
I mean self-starting, self-organizing out of the box thinkers that can deal with the chaos of an early stage start-up. My experience is that a lot of agency people have a lot of problems coping in environments without a lot of process, nor are they inclined to feel ownership. There is no sense of equal quality when comparing the lifestyle of a startup to that of working at an agency (of which I have 10+ years experience working in). At an agency, there are people above you and people below you and despite whatever flaws in the process that the agency has, it at least has one. Figure that most early stages are typically 3-4 people. Process isn't as important as this stage as getting stuff done and getting stuff out. In fact, an intricate involved process at this point would do more damage than good. At 5-10 people, process starts becoming important, but that process must be devised amongst the people in the company. Most agency people we've had come work at Massify during this period had a hard time adjusting as we attempt to soothe the chaos. It takes a fairly rare blend of ambition and drive to succeed in a startup at this point. And, btw, if you're handing out equity, they sure as shit better love it or they should really move on. They needn't love it as much as I do, nor do I expect that from them, but they better have some affection for it or they should hit the road. When things get grim, it's this certain love or passion for the product that carries you through.
- aditya 18y ago
  yeah! agencies are the other source of stupid 'web developers', and there are a LOT of agencies in New York being the ad capital and what not.
- Tamerlin 18y ago
  I've worked in such environments, and as much as I enjoyed the work when I was able to do it, the reality was that we wound up wasting a lot of time spinning our wheels because we accidentally stepped on each other toes. As a result, I wasn't able to do the work I wanted to do, and was hired to do, most of the time that I was there. So the affection wore off, and I gave up and left once I saw the writing on the wall. I've also worked in companies of 3-4 people (including me) that had basic processes (source control, requirements management, etc), and the results were FAR better. We ended up spending MORE time doing our job, not less. We also spent a LOT less time cleaning up messes and wondering why we acquired 15 build errors every time we synced the code from source control. Though I agree that a small group doesn't require a lot of process, chaos is counter productive.

Tamerlin 18y ago

You're the one who has it wrong. You're just having trouble finding people willing to sacrifice their lives for their jobs, and those aren't the people you want working for you anyway.