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Ask a Chinese citizen to publicly speak out and push back against the CCP and see if they are (rightly) afraid to do so. Ask an American to publicly speak out a

Ask a Chinese citizen to publicly speak out and push back against the CCP and see if they are (rightly) afraid to do so. Ask an American to publicly speak out and push back against the US government, and you'd get laughed at since basically 99% of Americans do that daily.

rydre 6y ago
The American equivalent would be BLM protests. We all know how the feds are kidnapping citizens without warrant. People around the world are watching this closely and they're not fools anymore.
- catalogia 6y ago
  > The American equivalent would be BLM protests. We all know how the feds are kidnapping citizens without warrant. I mentioned this happening two weeks ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23874084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23874084), while living in America. I think it's a legitimate cause for concern. However I did not fear that I'd be sent to a concentration camp for mentioning it. The situation has not [yet?] deteriorated so far as to be comparable with the CCP's China.
- zaroth 6y ago
  I don’t think I’ll ever get over how Federal agents, in uniform, making lawful arrests, where suspects were Mirandized, interviewed, and then released, somehow becomes black-bagging simply because they didn’t put a decal on their vehicle.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    People in Portland were being arrested without being Mirandized. https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federal-law-enforcement-is-making-unconstitutional-arrests-in-portland/#3b5e846112a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federa...
    - zaroth 6y ago
      > This should not be happening in the United States. A person cannot be constitutionally arrested without charge, without being read his rights, and without the arresting officials identifying whom they work for and into whose custody the arrestee is being taken or where he is being taken. This is at least partly false. First, you need to be Mirandized before being interviewed. You do not need to be Mirandized at the moment you are being arrested. “The Miranda warning (from the U.S. Supreme Court's Miranda v. Arizona decision), requires that officers let you know of certain facts after your arrest, before questioning you.” Second, you can be arrested with reasonable suspicion even if no charges are ultimately brought; “In the U.S. and its territories, FBI special agents may make arrests for any federal offense committed in their presence or when they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed, or is committing, a felony violation of U.S. laws” Third, you can be legally arrested by plainclothes officers that identify themselves as police. In some jurisdictions you can even be arrested by another citizen.
      - rydre 6y ago
        > This is at least partly false. First, you need to be Mirandized before being interviewed. You do not need to be Mirandized at the moment you are being arrested. > because they didn’t put a decal on their vehicle. Dude do you really see no problem with this? My biggest issue is how do I know if they're actual law enforcement agencies or some thugs? If I were in the situation, I would not know to resist the arrest or to comply because I do not know if they're kidnappers or law enforcers. I do not have much of a problem if I know they're actual law enforcers. But I can easily see this slipping into worse things like gangs pretending to be law enforcement and kidnapping people.
  - anonymoushn 6y ago
    In the video the guy was not Mirandized or told that he was under arrest.
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    Is this a real post? How are people supposed to record, for the purpose of later review, the actions of a un-identified set of people?
- gruez 6y ago
  You're comparing apples and oranges here. As much as I find the federal agents' behavior of be despicable, they're not what the parent post is talking about. I have yet seen someone dragged out of their homes for making a snaky tweet against trump, or speaking out against him in major media outlets.
dumb1224 6y ago
I don't 100% agree. Actually we do criticise CCP alot and it's as proliferate and popular as a cultural phenomenon itself (especially the older generation since people in power back then were even worse). It's true no one would raise up a giant placard on the street 'publically' but that's just culture difference. If you must think it's a sign of repression then I can't convince you.
- merpnderp 6y ago
  Is it a cultural difference or is it the fear of a violent crackdown, which has happened in the past? [edit to make less likely to cause problems for people reading HN in China]
  - dumb1224 6y ago
    I don't want to represent anyone but I personally think the fear is a bit over exaggerated. Ordinary people in general don't have such fear. You really have to get the attention of the very top and pissing people off big time. It's mostly having nothing to do with democratic movements. See example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lijun_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lijun_incident. And people in general enjoying discussing these issues and will understand all the subtext.
    - merpnderp 6y ago
      What would happen to people who started to publicly protest for the firing of everyone involved in the suppression of Dr. Li Wenliang's warning about COVID and his police detention and orders to stay quiet? Would it be possible to agitate for change, or would the movement's leaders be arrested and/or have their lives ruined?
      - dumb1224 6y ago
        There were 8 main doctors involved at the initial mess up. Eventually they are all publicly restored but the case of Li Wenliang led to a storm of internet protest (which I believe is the only thing covered in mainstream media). Some couldn't be taken seriously since it morphed into a meme (translation and circulation of the banned text into music sheet, mose code etc). But the truth is the ideological definition has been so fixed that it becomes sort of reverse psychology when people hear about protesting on the street, agitate for change they would feel appalled. In reality small protests did happen everywhere against injustice (just not in name of democracy). But of course these are just my opinions.
curiousnycips 6y ago
In China, one negative remark about the government may get you a visit from the police and a stern talking-to. A history of such remarks may get you interrogated or fined. For extreme violators you may not be allowed on social media at all, and you may lose your job. In America, one politically incorrect mark may get you not allowed on social media at all, right from the start. It may also lead to your immediate termination from your job, if your single remark attracts any attention whatsoever online. You may be de-platformed. You may be sued. Your bank may decide to close your account. And the people are angry. They want to punish thought criminals. If you think the Bad Thoughts, you deserve everything you have coming to you. In China, the government is remote, people are generally happy with the job it's doing, and no one wants to criticize it. So the rule of "don't criticize the government" is not a burdensome one, and (aside from a few vocal minorities at the fringes of society) people don't care. Yet in America, the smorgasbord of people and thoughts you are not permitted to criticize are around you 24/7. They are pushed continually in the media you consume (for "representation"), promoted as heroes and "brave", and if you disagree with any of this, at all, you had better hold your tongue about it. One of these countries deeply and heavily oppresses its populace, with continual threats of job loss, social ostracization, and suspicion about whom around you might be an informant, a political extremist or opportunist who will report your Bad Thoughts on the nearest social media platform and seek your immediate and total ruination. The other country does no such thing, and the idea that you would have to live in a state of perpetually policing your thoughts to not get fired or ostracized seems bizarre and paranoid when you relate it to its people. I'll let you guess which country is which. Source: 30 years in the U.S., 10 years in China. Frequent travel between the two, and tons of exposure to many people in both.

rydre 6y ago

The American equivalent would be BLM protests. We all know how the feds are kidnapping citizens without warrant. People around the world are watching this closely and they're not fools anymore.

catalogia 6y ago
> The American equivalent would be BLM protests. We all know how the feds are kidnapping citizens without warrant. I mentioned this happening two weeks ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23874084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23874084), while living in America. I think it's a legitimate cause for concern. However I did not fear that I'd be sent to a concentration camp for mentioning it. The situation has not [yet?] deteriorated so far as to be comparable with the CCP's China.
zaroth 6y ago
I don’t think I’ll ever get over how Federal agents, in uniform, making lawful arrests, where suspects were Mirandized, interviewed, and then released, somehow becomes black-bagging simply because they didn’t put a decal on their vehicle.
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
  People in Portland were being arrested without being Mirandized. https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federal-law-enforcement-is-making-unconstitutional-arrests-in-portland/#3b5e846112a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federa...
  - zaroth 6y ago
    > This should not be happening in the United States. A person cannot be constitutionally arrested without charge, without being read his rights, and without the arresting officials identifying whom they work for and into whose custody the arrestee is being taken or where he is being taken. This is at least partly false. First, you need to be Mirandized before being interviewed. You do not need to be Mirandized at the moment you are being arrested. “The Miranda warning (from the U.S. Supreme Court's Miranda v. Arizona decision), requires that officers let you know of certain facts after your arrest, before questioning you.” Second, you can be arrested with reasonable suspicion even if no charges are ultimately brought; “In the U.S. and its territories, FBI special agents may make arrests for any federal offense committed in their presence or when they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed, or is committing, a felony violation of U.S. laws” Third, you can be legally arrested by plainclothes officers that identify themselves as police. In some jurisdictions you can even be arrested by another citizen.
    - rydre 6y ago
      > This is at least partly false. First, you need to be Mirandized before being interviewed. You do not need to be Mirandized at the moment you are being arrested. > because they didn’t put a decal on their vehicle. Dude do you really see no problem with this? My biggest issue is how do I know if they're actual law enforcement agencies or some thugs? If I were in the situation, I would not know to resist the arrest or to comply because I do not know if they're kidnappers or law enforcers. I do not have much of a problem if I know they're actual law enforcers. But I can easily see this slipping into worse things like gangs pretending to be law enforcement and kidnapping people.
- anonymoushn 6y ago
  In the video the guy was not Mirandized or told that he was under arrest.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Is this a real post? How are people supposed to record, for the purpose of later review, the actions of a un-identified set of people?
gruez 6y ago
You're comparing apples and oranges here. As much as I find the federal agents' behavior of be despicable, they're not what the parent post is talking about. I have yet seen someone dragged out of their homes for making a snaky tweet against trump, or speaking out against him in major media outlets.

dumb1224 6y ago

I don't 100% agree. Actually we do criticise CCP alot and it's as proliferate and popular as a cultural phenomenon itself (especially the older generation since people in power back then were even worse). It's true no one would raise up a giant placard on the street 'publically' but that's just culture difference. If you must think it's a sign of repression then I can't convince you.

merpnderp 6y ago
Is it a cultural difference or is it the fear of a violent crackdown, which has happened in the past? [edit to make less likely to cause problems for people reading HN in China]
- dumb1224 6y ago
  I don't want to represent anyone but I personally think the fear is a bit over exaggerated. Ordinary people in general don't have such fear. You really have to get the attention of the very top and pissing people off big time. It's mostly having nothing to do with democratic movements. See example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lijun_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lijun_incident. And people in general enjoying discussing these issues and will understand all the subtext.
  - merpnderp 6y ago
    What would happen to people who started to publicly protest for the firing of everyone involved in the suppression of Dr. Li Wenliang's warning about COVID and his police detention and orders to stay quiet? Would it be possible to agitate for change, or would the movement's leaders be arrested and/or have their lives ruined?
    - dumb1224 6y ago
      There were 8 main doctors involved at the initial mess up. Eventually they are all publicly restored but the case of Li Wenliang led to a storm of internet protest (which I believe is the only thing covered in mainstream media). Some couldn't be taken seriously since it morphed into a meme (translation and circulation of the banned text into music sheet, mose code etc). But the truth is the ideological definition has been so fixed that it becomes sort of reverse psychology when people hear about protesting on the street, agitate for change they would feel appalled. In reality small protests did happen everywhere against injustice (just not in name of democracy). But of course these are just my opinions.

curiousnycips 6y ago

In China, one negative remark about the government may get you a visit from the police and a stern talking-to. A history of such remarks may get you interrogated or fined. For extreme violators you may not be allowed on social media at all, and you may lose your job. In America, one politically incorrect mark may get you not allowed on social media at all, right from the start. It may also lead to your immediate termination from your job, if your single remark attracts any attention whatsoever online. You may be de-platformed. You may be sued. Your bank may decide to close your account. And the people are angry. They want to punish thought criminals. If you think the Bad Thoughts, you deserve everything you have coming to you. In China, the government is remote, people are generally happy with the job it's doing, and no one wants to criticize it. So the rule of "don't criticize the government" is not a burdensome one, and (aside from a few vocal minorities at the fringes of society) people don't care. Yet in America, the smorgasbord of people and thoughts you are not permitted to criticize are around you 24/7. They are pushed continually in the media you consume (for "representation"), promoted as heroes and "brave", and if you disagree with any of this, at all, you had better hold your tongue about it. One of these countries deeply and heavily oppresses its populace, with continual threats of job loss, social ostracization, and suspicion about whom around you might be an informant, a political extremist or opportunist who will report your Bad Thoughts on the nearest social media platform and seek your immediate and total ruination. The other country does no such thing, and the idea that you would have to live in a state of perpetually policing your thoughts to not get fired or ostracized seems bizarre and paranoid when you relate it to its people. I'll let you guess which country is which. Source: 30 years in the U.S., 10 years in China. Frequent travel between the two, and tons of exposure to many people in both.