4 ms·

"Having kids is ecologically unsustainable." There, I've made an equally unnuanced statement, now what? I don't think things are that black and white. A moder

"Having kids is ecologically unsustainable." There, I've made an equally unnuanced statement, now what? I don't think things are that black and white. A moderate amount of air travel is not unsustainable per se, I would think.

PeterStuer 6y ago
Moderate amounts of almost everything was sustainable. Nothing is moderate about our current day consumption and extraction, and moderation is not compatible with our current socio-economic "growth or death" model.
- skrebbel 6y ago
  This still holds for having kids as well though.
  - MacsHeadroom 6y ago
    Yes, so what? Plenty of people are antinatalist, myself included. Thankfully, birth rates rapidly decline as nations develop. It's a problem that fixes itself. But it is a problem.
lm28469 6y ago
I think we all now what he means. Short term leisure trips to the other side of the continent aren't sustainable and are only viable because tourism heavily subsidises plane tickets prices.
- majidazimi 6y ago
  If tourism + aviation is profitable combined, then why should we care? It's like Sony is not profitable by selling play station hardware. But game business unit is profitable because subscription income covers the hardware loss.
  - lm28469 6y ago
    > If tourism + aviation is profitable combined, then why should we care? I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic comment but I'll bite: because it's a net loss for everyone in the long term ? I know many people stop at "will it make us richer ?" step but there are other things to consider. We're not in the 1800s anymore, we know about pollution and its long term effects for a while now. On top of that tourism might bring short term money but it's built on completely unstable funnels that can collapse at any point (cue covid), then you're left with regions of the world which lost the majority of their industries to tourism and are incapable of surviving or adapting when they're hit by the slightest hardship.
  - mantas 6y ago
    Is it profitable or just wealth transfer? Everybody chips in for subsidies, then AirBNB hosts reap the profit and raise rent for locals. Yay!
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  Why is it a subsidy if people are paying full price for their tickets? If you're looking for subsidies, check out the way jet fuel is taxed (usually at far lower rates than regular fuel) or implement a consistent emissions scheme. Not that either is likely for a while given the ongoing carnage in the industry.
  - iguy 6y ago
    Every time I've looked into supposed lack of jet fuel taxes, it seems to come down to taxing the driving of cars on roads via taxes on fuel. Fuel for agricultural or industrial use also doesn't contain such taxes, most places. Which is not to say there aren't other subsidies for air travel, for example in keeping open the minor airports at which low-cost airlines often land. And money for manufacturers.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- bogomipz 6y ago
  Could you elaborate? How exactly does tourism heavily subsidize plane ticket prices?
- berkes 6y ago
  Worse, even. Fuel is heavily subsidised (In many EU countries there's no excise on fuel for aircraft, but all other transports pay them; in UAE and other oil-states, fuel is even "free" for local carriers). Airports are often kept aloft by (local) governments (Ryanair to Charleroi every X years: Want us to start paying you? Then we leave and you can close the airport. Good luck with the unemplyment). And ticketprices are subsidised (in EU at least) by not having VAT and other taxes on them. Airtravel is a very heavily subsidised sector. As is train-travel and other public transport, but (I'm not expert, so this is merely hearsay) apparently airtravel is heavier subsidised than public transport.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  If business travel could be cut to next-to-nothing, short flights could be electrical, longer flights can be partially or fully renewable fuel then perhaps we don’t have to give up the odd intercontinental leisure flight. At least one can hope.
- FartyMcFarter 6y ago
  > I think we all now what he means He literally used the expression "to wind down": https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/wind-down https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/wind-dow... "if a business, situation, activity, etc. winds down, or is wound down, it gradually ends" So I think he meant there should be no more air travel at all.

PeterStuer 6y ago

Moderate amounts of almost everything was sustainable. Nothing is moderate about our current day consumption and extraction, and moderation is not compatible with our current socio-economic "growth or death" model.

skrebbel 6y ago
This still holds for having kids as well though.
- MacsHeadroom 6y ago
  Yes, so what? Plenty of people are antinatalist, myself included. Thankfully, birth rates rapidly decline as nations develop. It's a problem that fixes itself. But it is a problem.

lm28469 6y ago

I think we all now what he means. Short term leisure trips to the other side of the continent aren't sustainable and are only viable because tourism heavily subsidises plane tickets prices.

majidazimi 6y ago
If tourism + aviation is profitable combined, then why should we care? It's like Sony is not profitable by selling play station hardware. But game business unit is profitable because subscription income covers the hardware loss.
- lm28469 6y ago
  > If tourism + aviation is profitable combined, then why should we care? I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic comment but I'll bite: because it's a net loss for everyone in the long term ? I know many people stop at "will it make us richer ?" step but there are other things to consider. We're not in the 1800s anymore, we know about pollution and its long term effects for a while now. On top of that tourism might bring short term money but it's built on completely unstable funnels that can collapse at any point (cue covid), then you're left with regions of the world which lost the majority of their industries to tourism and are incapable of surviving or adapting when they're hit by the slightest hardship.
- mantas 6y ago
  Is it profitable or just wealth transfer? Everybody chips in for subsidies, then AirBNB hosts reap the profit and raise rent for locals. Yay!
9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
Why is it a subsidy if people are paying full price for their tickets? If you're looking for subsidies, check out the way jet fuel is taxed (usually at far lower rates than regular fuel) or implement a consistent emissions scheme. Not that either is likely for a while given the ongoing carnage in the industry.
- iguy 6y ago
  Every time I've looked into supposed lack of jet fuel taxes, it seems to come down to taxing the driving of cars on roads via taxes on fuel. Fuel for agricultural or industrial use also doesn't contain such taxes, most places. Which is not to say there aren't other subsidies for air travel, for example in keeping open the minor airports at which low-cost airlines often land. And money for manufacturers.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
bogomipz 6y ago
Could you elaborate? How exactly does tourism heavily subsidize plane ticket prices?
berkes 6y ago
Worse, even. Fuel is heavily subsidised (In many EU countries there's no excise on fuel for aircraft, but all other transports pay them; in UAE and other oil-states, fuel is even "free" for local carriers). Airports are often kept aloft by (local) governments (Ryanair to Charleroi every X years: Want us to start paying you? Then we leave and you can close the airport. Good luck with the unemplyment). And ticketprices are subsidised (in EU at least) by not having VAT and other taxes on them. Airtravel is a very heavily subsidised sector. As is train-travel and other public transport, but (I'm not expert, so this is merely hearsay) apparently airtravel is heavier subsidised than public transport.
alkonaut 6y ago
If business travel could be cut to next-to-nothing, short flights could be electrical, longer flights can be partially or fully renewable fuel then perhaps we don’t have to give up the odd intercontinental leisure flight. At least one can hope.
FartyMcFarter 6y ago
> I think we all now what he means He literally used the expression "to wind down": https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/wind-down https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/wind-dow... "if a business, situation, activity, etc. winds down, or is wound down, it gradually ends" So I think he meant there should be no more air travel at all.