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I don’t think people disagree more than they ever used to. I do think however that people are much more likely to judge those who disagree with them as simply b

I don’t think people disagree more than they ever used to. I do think however that people are much more likely to judge those who disagree with them as simply being bad people, and are therefor willing to just dismiss their point of view entirely. Which is pretty much what the parent comment is doing. For anybody who’s legitimately curious about why Brexiteers so firmly won’t be reasoned with, I’d suggest you take a look at this survey that shows how much less likely remain voters are to understand the motives of leave voters, than leave voters are to understand the motives of remain voters. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-bet... Really I think most people generally agree on what they want from society. Outside of the fringes, the primary points of contention revolve around how to prioritize issues over other issues, and the specifics of the approach to solving them.

LatteLazy 6y ago
Respectfully, I have talked to hundreds of brexiteers and looked at everything they claim. Then dismissed it. It's exposure, not a lack of exposure that makes me dismiss them. As far as I can tell (I am no social scientist) they'd be flat-earthers or anti-vaxers but they got got caught up in brexit first...
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  If only they were less unreasonable...
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    I think this whole thing has really taught me a lot. One aspect of that is that people are not rational by nature. Another is that we cannot change that about them and actually it's as much a force of nature as a hurricane or an earthquake. You cannot argue or reason with any of these forces. Our mistake has been failing to build quake proof cities, not failing to appreciate the earthquakes point of view...
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      I think that's a view that a fair number of people have. Of course the error in it is that you're confusing "different rationale to mine" with "lack of rationale". It's very easy to look at people who disagree with you and presume that they're uninformed or irrational. When the truth is most certainly that you and the person you disagree with are both misinformed and irrational, only about different stuff. By refusing to acknowledge the possibility that people may in-fact engage in well reasoned consideration about a topic, and come to a different conclusion than you did, you're just perpetuating the very thing you're complaining about. You can disagree with me, and I may in-fact be completely wrong, but I do think I've presented a rational position, and made some effort to substantiate it. Something I can't really see here in your comments.
      - LatteLazy 6y ago
        Of course, you're correct that there could be a rationale for brexit. But that begs the question: what is it? After 100s of discussions with 100s of brexiteers, none has been forthcoming. They've made weird claims about soverignty\trade\immigration\fishing\passport-colour-schemes etc, but those all fall down when you introduce facts and yet brexiteers don't change their position. So the real rationale must be something else. So we're presented with 2 possible realities: * EITHER, there is no rationale for brexit beyond the "It's what I want and I don't know why but I do" rationale (weak right?). I might not agree with this, but I would respect it if that was what brexiteers said. I can't justify my love of chocolate but I still love it. * OR, There is a rationale for brexit, but it is secret and cannot be shared with me, and people insist they will share it for unknown reasons, but then don't also for other unknown reasons. This second position seems a little crazy, but I will admit it is technically possible. Perhaps 17million people have all been initiated into the secrets of brexit and my small remainer mind cannot fathoms such great matters...
        Nursie 6y ago
        OR you could take a look at the article you were linked to about various surveys, and see what they had to say about the self-reported motivations of the voters. Might be enlightening. How have you managed hundreds of conversations with hundreds of different "brexiteers"? Do you have exact figures? Is it part of your job? Is a "brexiteer" the same as someone who voted to leave the EU, or do you mean something more specific?

LatteLazy 6y ago

Respectfully, I have talked to hundreds of brexiteers and looked at everything they claim. Then dismissed it. It's exposure, not a lack of exposure that makes me dismiss them. As far as I can tell (I am no social scientist) they'd be flat-earthers or anti-vaxers but they got got caught up in brexit first...

AmericanChopper 6y ago
If only they were less unreasonable...
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  I think this whole thing has really taught me a lot. One aspect of that is that people are not rational by nature. Another is that we cannot change that about them and actually it's as much a force of nature as a hurricane or an earthquake. You cannot argue or reason with any of these forces. Our mistake has been failing to build quake proof cities, not failing to appreciate the earthquakes point of view...
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I think that's a view that a fair number of people have. Of course the error in it is that you're confusing "different rationale to mine" with "lack of rationale". It's very easy to look at people who disagree with you and presume that they're uninformed or irrational. When the truth is most certainly that you and the person you disagree with are both misinformed and irrational, only about different stuff. By refusing to acknowledge the possibility that people may in-fact engage in well reasoned consideration about a topic, and come to a different conclusion than you did, you're just perpetuating the very thing you're complaining about. You can disagree with me, and I may in-fact be completely wrong, but I do think I've presented a rational position, and made some effort to substantiate it. Something I can't really see here in your comments.
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      Of course, you're correct that there could be a rationale for brexit. But that begs the question: what is it? After 100s of discussions with 100s of brexiteers, none has been forthcoming. They've made weird claims about soverignty\trade\immigration\fishing\passport-colour-schemes etc, but those all fall down when you introduce facts and yet brexiteers don't change their position. So the real rationale must be something else. So we're presented with 2 possible realities: * EITHER, there is no rationale for brexit beyond the "It's what I want and I don't know why but I do" rationale (weak right?). I might not agree with this, but I would respect it if that was what brexiteers said. I can't justify my love of chocolate but I still love it. * OR, There is a rationale for brexit, but it is secret and cannot be shared with me, and people insist they will share it for unknown reasons, but then don't also for other unknown reasons. This second position seems a little crazy, but I will admit it is technically possible. Perhaps 17million people have all been initiated into the secrets of brexit and my small remainer mind cannot fathoms such great matters...
      - Nursie 6y ago
        OR you could take a look at the article you were linked to about various surveys, and see what they had to say about the self-reported motivations of the voters. Might be enlightening. How have you managed hundreds of conversations with hundreds of different "brexiteers"? Do you have exact figures? Is it part of your job? Is a "brexiteer" the same as someone who voted to leave the EU, or do you mean something more specific?