4 ms·

> Brexiteers won't be reasoned with and being reasonable is seen as weakness by them. This “reasonableness is weakness” thing seems to be a more and more clear

> Brexiteers won't be reasoned with and being reasonable is seen as weakness by them. This “reasonableness is weakness” thing seems to be a more and more clear trend in western culture... It’s quite disturbing and seems very dangerous to me. Or is it something that’s been circulating for a long time, just that I haven’t noticed?

Sambdala 6y ago
It's the 'movie' version of negotiating that plays to a populist crowd. It intersects with other 'tough guy' identity tropes that are being (successfully) used in domestic political battles to gain power, and then are repositioned to be used in foreign relations with predictably terrible outcomes. The problem is the audience of the negotiating stance isn't the counterparty, it's the domestic base who elected you because they were fed up with nuance and are suspicious of the counterparty. This isn't just a Brexit problem, but is much more widespread. I don't know how you'd be able to align incentives any worse.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > It's the 'movie' version of negotiating that plays to a populist crowd. See also: "the art of the deal" > The problem is the audience of the negotiating stance isn't the counterparty, it's the domestic base who elected you because they were fed up with nuance and are suspicious of the counterparty. Not just the nuance, but the lack of dramatic change, a handful of examples of bad behavior by the party of nuance being equally corrupt or useless, and a constant stream of propaganda highlighting that.
AmericanChopper 6y ago
I don’t think people disagree more than they ever used to. I do think however that people are much more likely to judge those who disagree with them as simply being bad people, and are therefor willing to just dismiss their point of view entirely. Which is pretty much what the parent comment is doing. For anybody who’s legitimately curious about why Brexiteers so firmly won’t be reasoned with, I’d suggest you take a look at this survey that shows how much less likely remain voters are to understand the motives of leave voters, than leave voters are to understand the motives of remain voters. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-bet... Really I think most people generally agree on what they want from society. Outside of the fringes, the primary points of contention revolve around how to prioritize issues over other issues, and the specifics of the approach to solving them.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Respectfully, I have talked to hundreds of brexiteers and looked at everything they claim. Then dismissed it. It's exposure, not a lack of exposure that makes me dismiss them. As far as I can tell (I am no social scientist) they'd be flat-earthers or anti-vaxers but they got got caught up in brexit first...
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    If only they were less unreasonable...
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      I think this whole thing has really taught me a lot. One aspect of that is that people are not rational by nature. Another is that we cannot change that about them and actually it's as much a force of nature as a hurricane or an earthquake. You cannot argue or reason with any of these forces. Our mistake has been failing to build quake proof cities, not failing to appreciate the earthquakes point of view...
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        I think that's a view that a fair number of people have. Of course the error in it is that you're confusing "different rationale to mine" with "lack of rationale". It's very easy to look at people who disagree with you and presume that they're uninformed or irrational. When the truth is most certainly that you and the person you disagree with are both misinformed and irrational, only about different stuff. By refusing to acknowledge the possibility that people may in-fact engage in well reasoned consideration about a topic, and come to a different conclusion than you did, you're just perpetuating the very thing you're complaining about. You can disagree with me, and I may in-fact be completely wrong, but I do think I've presented a rational position, and made some effort to substantiate it. Something I can't really see here in your comments.
        6y ago

Sambdala 6y ago

It's the 'movie' version of negotiating that plays to a populist crowd. It intersects with other 'tough guy' identity tropes that are being (successfully) used in domestic political battles to gain power, and then are repositioned to be used in foreign relations with predictably terrible outcomes. The problem is the audience of the negotiating stance isn't the counterparty, it's the domestic base who elected you because they were fed up with nuance and are suspicious of the counterparty. This isn't just a Brexit problem, but is much more widespread. I don't know how you'd be able to align incentives any worse.

blaser-waffle 6y ago
> It's the 'movie' version of negotiating that plays to a populist crowd. See also: "the art of the deal" > The problem is the audience of the negotiating stance isn't the counterparty, it's the domestic base who elected you because they were fed up with nuance and are suspicious of the counterparty. Not just the nuance, but the lack of dramatic change, a handful of examples of bad behavior by the party of nuance being equally corrupt or useless, and a constant stream of propaganda highlighting that.

AmericanChopper 6y ago

I don’t think people disagree more than they ever used to. I do think however that people are much more likely to judge those who disagree with them as simply being bad people, and are therefor willing to just dismiss their point of view entirely. Which is pretty much what the parent comment is doing. For anybody who’s legitimately curious about why Brexiteers so firmly won’t be reasoned with, I’d suggest you take a look at this survey that shows how much less likely remain voters are to understand the motives of leave voters, than leave voters are to understand the motives of remain voters. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-bet... Really I think most people generally agree on what they want from society. Outside of the fringes, the primary points of contention revolve around how to prioritize issues over other issues, and the specifics of the approach to solving them.

LatteLazy 6y ago
Respectfully, I have talked to hundreds of brexiteers and looked at everything they claim. Then dismissed it. It's exposure, not a lack of exposure that makes me dismiss them. As far as I can tell (I am no social scientist) they'd be flat-earthers or anti-vaxers but they got got caught up in brexit first...
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  If only they were less unreasonable...
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    I think this whole thing has really taught me a lot. One aspect of that is that people are not rational by nature. Another is that we cannot change that about them and actually it's as much a force of nature as a hurricane or an earthquake. You cannot argue or reason with any of these forces. Our mistake has been failing to build quake proof cities, not failing to appreciate the earthquakes point of view...
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      I think that's a view that a fair number of people have. Of course the error in it is that you're confusing "different rationale to mine" with "lack of rationale". It's very easy to look at people who disagree with you and presume that they're uninformed or irrational. When the truth is most certainly that you and the person you disagree with are both misinformed and irrational, only about different stuff. By refusing to acknowledge the possibility that people may in-fact engage in well reasoned consideration about a topic, and come to a different conclusion than you did, you're just perpetuating the very thing you're complaining about. You can disagree with me, and I may in-fact be completely wrong, but I do think I've presented a rational position, and made some effort to substantiate it. Something I can't really see here in your comments.
      - 6y ago