8 ms·

A Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Permanently Flipped Workplace

54 points by ohjeez 6y ago

tmoaad 6y ago
>If employees choose to relocate but their presence is required on a regular basis (1 week per month or several weeks throughout the year), depending on your budget, it is reasonable to expect them to cover their own travel costs. Really? If my employer started doing this, I would be looking for a new employer long before I'd start paying for my own travel costs.
- drewcoo 6y ago
  As long as they also pay you for the office space you would have used had you been local it seems fair to me.
- iandanforth 6y ago
  It's an interesting question. If you're a sales guy, traveling is part of your job and the company pays for it. Anyone who is required to be in the office is assumed to be "commuting" and that is often not compensated (but sometimes is if you use public transit etc). So maybe the fuzzy line is personal travel to work isn't compensated but travel away from work/home for the purposes of work is. I'm not sure there is any rock solid logic behind any of this though.
- ghaff 6y ago
  So long as an employer has approved you to go remote from an office, the cost of you coming into an office now and then is on them. And, frankly, if you just move without telling them, you're potentially committing tax fraud. Of course, it's possible to reach informal agreements--let me go remote and I'll pay for coming in now and then. Though, personally, I'd hesitate to do so because that agreement might not last beyond getting a new manager.
- em-bee 6y ago
  some employers do pay for employee transportation but for this case it depends on how you got hired. this is a point for negotiation. assuming you previously lived near the office and then decided to move without there being any benefit to the employer then why should they pay for your additional expenses? unless of course they decide to cut your salary because of your new location. then it's up to negotiations again.
corty 6y ago
> I strongly suggest a blanket policy for video-on during all Zoom calls. How about: Hell, no!? Video is a distraction at best. Usually it prevents discussion by emphasizing shallow sidechannels to the communication that add nothing but mislead everyone. People need to say what they think and not rely on nonverbal clues. Those only work in person, not over video. A talking head doesn't have posture. Lag means mimic and speech are misaligned. Just treat it like a phone call, no video, just maybe shared slides or whiteboards. More happiness, more productivity, less misunderstandings.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- OkGoDoIt 6y ago
  I worked on two separate remote teams over the past year. The first team had video on and zoom calls and my current team has video off. Small anecdotal sample size, but in my experience with the video-on team there was a much stronger sense that I knew who the team was, felt responsible to them, and generally we felt more cohesive as a team even though I never met them in person. My current team no one ever turns their cameras on, I only know what they look like from their employee IDs, and I have zero sense of camaraderie with them. Meetings tend to drag on at least twice as long, since people can easily check out and stop paying attention if something doesn’t seem relevant to them. There’s no small talk or banter, and I find I just kind of listen passively while working until I hear my name and then jump back to full attention. I definitely get the sense that’s what everyone else does as well, since very few people ever speak up unless explicitly called on. Everything feels less tight and less personal. It’s great for the individual employee’s ability to crank out work, but if you care about the actual team cohesiveness and productivity, enforced video on feels like it can make a difference.
  - mpweiher 6y ago
    Hmm...could it be that your current team is over-using synchronous communication (calls) where they should be using asynchronous communication? Intersperse occasional video calls for the other stuff.
jnwatson 6y ago
Regardless of the reason for the article, the sheer quantity of links to all the back-office HR-related outsourcing companies is impressive. One might say that space is over-invested; at the same time, it does make a startup a lot easier to operate.
glitchc 6y ago
Video is unfortunately a poor substitute for in-person interaction but better than voice alone. I suspect over time that teams building a defined product will persevere while teams that relied upon to design a product, such as my own, will experience a gradual breakdown of trust as individuals split off in their thinking. It’s hard to find words sometimes for a concept that’s strictly a mental product and not everyone is practiced or skilled at elocution. Strong designers with poor vocal skills will undoubtedly experience frustration with remote work which is essentially a voice-primary medium.
mdoms 6y ago
This permanent work from home theory sits really wrong with me. In particular this part; > Permanently upgrade all employee’s work from home environments so they are the same quality as their in-office stations. This may come in the form of stipends, lump sum payments, or redistribution of office property, depending on job function. It's extremely unlikely that a company is going to offer me a lump sum payment that anywhere near makes up for the increased floor space and altered layout of my home to give me a proper office-like environment to work in. Few companies will shell out $50,000 for me to extend my home to build an office, and I see no reason why I should work for an organisation that demands I do so myself. For many people in HCOL areas it's totally unreasonable to expect people to shell out double their rent or more to get an extra bedroom/office space. Look, I live in New Zealand. I can tell you that this whole "everything has changed forever" attitude that I am hearing from Americans will pass, very quickly, when this pandemic ends. We will most likely see employers becoming a lot more flexible with WFH arrangements, which is a really nice silver lining. But the idea that the office is done for? Forget about it.
- feralimal 6y ago
  Why and when do you think it will end? Did you see how quickly the networks were upgraded? Within weeks around my way... So, infrastructure was upgraded quickly. You are probably aware of what's going on in Australia - where lockdowns are returning, with certain tower blocks in Melbourne locked in, and the army making house to house calls.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    It will end because many people derive a good portion of their day-to-day socialization from work. This is especially true of people new to cities, younger folks without immediate family in the area, and so on. Here's why I'll head back to the office the first chance I get: 1. I don't want to live my entire life within a 750 square foot allotment. 2. I find my ability to balance work and life enhanced by going somewhere to work. The physical separation between the two creates a mental / emotional separation. 3. Socializing with a bunch of people. 4. Enhanced impact: much of the truly innovative and impactful stuff I've done in my career originated from ad-hoc conversations with people around me. It's not the same over Slack. 5. Someone on my team announced on Friday they were leaving the team and expressed how much they enjoyed working with us over the last 6 months. My immediate reaction was... wait, we worked together? for 6 months? I don't really know who you are. The only people I actually feel connected to at work are the ones I worked with before this madness kicked off. Humans are fundamentally social animals. That's why it will end. As for when? Once herd immunity is established, either the American way by throwing old folks and the immunocompromised under the bus until nobody's left, or a vaccine, which will likely be available in global quantities by EOY 2021 -- according to manufacturers in late-stage trials. That's when it will end. IMO, of course.
tannedNerd 6y ago
Ive pushed back hard against video on for everyone. There is usually very little gained for everyone having video on besides allowing the meeting host to see who’s paying attention. If I’m spending time with my friends that’s different because the point is to see their faces and be social, but my coworkers I don’t need to see their faces just their presentation.
aerotwelve 6y ago
You've just got to love the tone of these articles: the future of work is here. You don't have any control over it, you don't have any say over it. If it's cheaper for us to make you work in your bedroom for the rest of your life, then that's just how it's going to work. This decision has already been made for you. > Set clear guidelines for what should be communicated where (meetings vs. e-mail vs. Asana vs. Slack vs. text message, vs. phone calls) and what are expected response times on each medium. Hold everyone at every level accountable for abiding by these guidelines... John, I noticed that your response time to Slack messages has fallen behind your email response rate and your Asana turnaround time. Is there something you're not enjoying about your new freedom?
- csa 6y ago
  This is pretty much what happens on high-performing teams, but not quite how you seemed to present it. 1. Expectations are set at a reasonable level, not a “jump when I say jump, damn it!” level. 2. If someone is not meeting expectations, people check in to see if they can help. If something is not working consistently, then adjustments to the process need to be made. Occasionally the issue is the person in the job — that is, they can’t do it. This is a hiring issue that will need to be addressed. They need to be put in a position they can succeed in or they need to be removed.
tazjin 6y ago
> The second wave of COVID-19 infections has dashed all illusions of going back to the way things before I didn't read this much further, honestly. It's exhausting to keep reading authors who don't really invest time in understanding the dynamics of what's going on. For those who want to dive in to this particular leaf: https://theconversation.com/the-us-isnt-in-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-the-first-wave-never-ended-141032 https://theconversation.com/the-us-isnt-in-a-second-wave-of-... It really is useful to try and understand these things so you don't go around making muddied predictions. (Also I should note that I disagree with some things in that linked article, in case anyone is feeling like attacking other points that it makes)
- perl4ever 6y ago
  I think this may have devolved into nitpicking semantics. While a "second wave" I don't think is a widespread phenomenon in the sense of cases dying down and then coming back in a given place, some places could be considered to have a "second wave" in the sense that their wave has or will peak later than the wave in other places. For instance, Florida isn't having a second wave relative to itself, but it could be construed as a second wave relative to NY or NJ. It seems to me to boil down to a different arbitrary definition.
  - tazjin 6y ago
    It's quite important semantically because for people who don't stay well informed 'second wave' might imply that areas which have "gone through" the wave are benig hit again, which so far is not the case. Essentially a lot of news reporting on this at the moment seems to be fearmongering and maybe an attempt at face-saving from politicians, who will at some point not be able to escape the reality that many of the measures they instituted were not the ones which would actually have saved lives (such as stricter policies about care homes).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
goatinaboat 6y ago
This just reads like shilling for a bunch of random products. Not worth the few minutes to read.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nogabebop23 6y ago
So the author is a GP in a VC firm focusing on the future of work", who thinks that many (most?) of the challenges of the "permanently flipped workplace" can be solved with the combination of SASS tooling and essentially mission statements. I'm sorry but this type of advice is neither actionable or helpful: "Establish and communicate clear guidelines.." "Engage managers in building the right workflow for their respective teams." "Do whatever is necessary to achieve executive-level clarity on your priorities, values, and goals" "Interview team leaders and managers on what unites them as a team in both theory and in practice." ...And on it goes. The only thing I can conclude is that in this flipped-around future of work everyone works in HR.
- Izkata 6y ago
  > SASS tooling Alright, so this is the third time I've seen this today - is it an acronym I'm not aware of, or is it a typo/autocorrect of "SaaS tooling"? The only SASS that comes to mind is Syntactically-Awesome StyleSheets, which makes no sense in context.

54 points by ohjeez 6y ago

>If employees choose to relocate but their presence is required on a regular basis (1 week per month or several weeks throughout the year), depending on your budget, it is reasonable to expect them to cover their own travel costs. Really? If my employer started doing this, I would be looking for a new employer long before I'd start paying for my own travel costs.

drewcoo 6y ago
As long as they also pay you for the office space you would have used had you been local it seems fair to me.
iandanforth 6y ago
It's an interesting question. If you're a sales guy, traveling is part of your job and the company pays for it. Anyone who is required to be in the office is assumed to be "commuting" and that is often not compensated (but sometimes is if you use public transit etc). So maybe the fuzzy line is personal travel to work isn't compensated but travel away from work/home for the purposes of work is. I'm not sure there is any rock solid logic behind any of this though.
ghaff 6y ago
So long as an employer has approved you to go remote from an office, the cost of you coming into an office now and then is on them. And, frankly, if you just move without telling them, you're potentially committing tax fraud. Of course, it's possible to reach informal agreements--let me go remote and I'll pay for coming in now and then. Though, personally, I'd hesitate to do so because that agreement might not last beyond getting a new manager.
em-bee 6y ago
some employers do pay for employee transportation but for this case it depends on how you got hired. this is a point for negotiation. assuming you previously lived near the office and then decided to move without there being any benefit to the employer then why should they pay for your additional expenses? unless of course they decide to cut your salary because of your new location. then it's up to negotiations again.

corty 6y ago

> I strongly suggest a blanket policy for video-on during all Zoom calls. How about: Hell, no!? Video is a distraction at best. Usually it prevents discussion by emphasizing shallow sidechannels to the communication that add nothing but mislead everyone. People need to say what they think and not rely on nonverbal clues. Those only work in person, not over video. A talking head doesn't have posture. Lag means mimic and speech are misaligned. Just treat it like a phone call, no video, just maybe shared slides or whiteboards. More happiness, more productivity, less misunderstandings.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
OkGoDoIt 6y ago
I worked on two separate remote teams over the past year. The first team had video on and zoom calls and my current team has video off. Small anecdotal sample size, but in my experience with the video-on team there was a much stronger sense that I knew who the team was, felt responsible to them, and generally we felt more cohesive as a team even though I never met them in person. My current team no one ever turns their cameras on, I only know what they look like from their employee IDs, and I have zero sense of camaraderie with them. Meetings tend to drag on at least twice as long, since people can easily check out and stop paying attention if something doesn’t seem relevant to them. There’s no small talk or banter, and I find I just kind of listen passively while working until I hear my name and then jump back to full attention. I definitely get the sense that’s what everyone else does as well, since very few people ever speak up unless explicitly called on. Everything feels less tight and less personal. It’s great for the individual employee’s ability to crank out work, but if you care about the actual team cohesiveness and productivity, enforced video on feels like it can make a difference.
- mpweiher 6y ago
  Hmm...could it be that your current team is over-using synchronous communication (calls) where they should be using asynchronous communication? Intersperse occasional video calls for the other stuff.

jnwatson 6y ago

Regardless of the reason for the article, the sheer quantity of links to all the back-office HR-related outsourcing companies is impressive. One might say that space is over-invested; at the same time, it does make a startup a lot easier to operate.

glitchc 6y ago

Video is unfortunately a poor substitute for in-person interaction but better than voice alone. I suspect over time that teams building a defined product will persevere while teams that relied upon to design a product, such as my own, will experience a gradual breakdown of trust as individuals split off in their thinking. It’s hard to find words sometimes for a concept that’s strictly a mental product and not everyone is practiced or skilled at elocution. Strong designers with poor vocal skills will undoubtedly experience frustration with remote work which is essentially a voice-primary medium.

mdoms 6y ago

This permanent work from home theory sits really wrong with me. In particular this part; > Permanently upgrade all employee’s work from home environments so they are the same quality as their in-office stations. This may come in the form of stipends, lump sum payments, or redistribution of office property, depending on job function. It's extremely unlikely that a company is going to offer me a lump sum payment that anywhere near makes up for the increased floor space and altered layout of my home to give me a proper office-like environment to work in. Few companies will shell out $50,000 for me to extend my home to build an office, and I see no reason why I should work for an organisation that demands I do so myself. For many people in HCOL areas it's totally unreasonable to expect people to shell out double their rent or more to get an extra bedroom/office space. Look, I live in New Zealand. I can tell you that this whole "everything has changed forever" attitude that I am hearing from Americans will pass, very quickly, when this pandemic ends. We will most likely see employers becoming a lot more flexible with WFH arrangements, which is a really nice silver lining. But the idea that the office is done for? Forget about it.

feralimal 6y ago
Why and when do you think it will end? Did you see how quickly the networks were upgraded? Within weeks around my way... So, infrastructure was upgraded quickly. You are probably aware of what's going on in Australia - where lockdowns are returning, with certain tower blocks in Melbourne locked in, and the army making house to house calls.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  It will end because many people derive a good portion of their day-to-day socialization from work. This is especially true of people new to cities, younger folks without immediate family in the area, and so on. Here's why I'll head back to the office the first chance I get: 1. I don't want to live my entire life within a 750 square foot allotment. 2. I find my ability to balance work and life enhanced by going somewhere to work. The physical separation between the two creates a mental / emotional separation. 3. Socializing with a bunch of people. 4. Enhanced impact: much of the truly innovative and impactful stuff I've done in my career originated from ad-hoc conversations with people around me. It's not the same over Slack. 5. Someone on my team announced on Friday they were leaving the team and expressed how much they enjoyed working with us over the last 6 months. My immediate reaction was... wait, we worked together? for 6 months? I don't really know who you are. The only people I actually feel connected to at work are the ones I worked with before this madness kicked off. Humans are fundamentally social animals. That's why it will end. As for when? Once herd immunity is established, either the American way by throwing old folks and the immunocompromised under the bus until nobody's left, or a vaccine, which will likely be available in global quantities by EOY 2021 -- according to manufacturers in late-stage trials. That's when it will end. IMO, of course.

tannedNerd 6y ago

Ive pushed back hard against video on for everyone. There is usually very little gained for everyone having video on besides allowing the meeting host to see who’s paying attention. If I’m spending time with my friends that’s different because the point is to see their faces and be social, but my coworkers I don’t need to see their faces just their presentation.

aerotwelve 6y ago

You've just got to love the tone of these articles: the future of work is here. You don't have any control over it, you don't have any say over it. If it's cheaper for us to make you work in your bedroom for the rest of your life, then that's just how it's going to work. This decision has already been made for you. > Set clear guidelines for what should be communicated where (meetings vs. e-mail vs. Asana vs. Slack vs. text message, vs. phone calls) and what are expected response times on each medium. Hold everyone at every level accountable for abiding by these guidelines... John, I noticed that your response time to Slack messages has fallen behind your email response rate and your Asana turnaround time. Is there something you're not enjoying about your new freedom?

csa 6y ago
This is pretty much what happens on high-performing teams, but not quite how you seemed to present it. 1. Expectations are set at a reasonable level, not a “jump when I say jump, damn it!” level. 2. If someone is not meeting expectations, people check in to see if they can help. If something is not working consistently, then adjustments to the process need to be made. Occasionally the issue is the person in the job — that is, they can’t do it. This is a hiring issue that will need to be addressed. They need to be put in a position they can succeed in or they need to be removed.

tazjin 6y ago

> The second wave of COVID-19 infections has dashed all illusions of going back to the way things before I didn't read this much further, honestly. It's exhausting to keep reading authors who don't really invest time in understanding the dynamics of what's going on. For those who want to dive in to this particular leaf: https://theconversation.com/the-us-isnt-in-a-second-wave-of-coronavirus-the-first-wave-never-ended-141032 https://theconversation.com/the-us-isnt-in-a-second-wave-of-... It really is useful to try and understand these things so you don't go around making muddied predictions. (Also I should note that I disagree with some things in that linked article, in case anyone is feeling like attacking other points that it makes)

perl4ever 6y ago
I think this may have devolved into nitpicking semantics. While a "second wave" I don't think is a widespread phenomenon in the sense of cases dying down and then coming back in a given place, some places could be considered to have a "second wave" in the sense that their wave has or will peak later than the wave in other places. For instance, Florida isn't having a second wave relative to itself, but it could be construed as a second wave relative to NY or NJ. It seems to me to boil down to a different arbitrary definition.
- tazjin 6y ago
  It's quite important semantically because for people who don't stay well informed 'second wave' might imply that areas which have "gone through" the wave are benig hit again, which so far is not the case. Essentially a lot of news reporting on this at the moment seems to be fearmongering and maybe an attempt at face-saving from politicians, who will at some point not be able to escape the reality that many of the measures they instituted were not the ones which would actually have saved lives (such as stricter policies about care homes).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

goatinaboat 6y ago

This just reads like shilling for a bunch of random products. Not worth the few minutes to read.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

nogabebop23 6y ago

So the author is a GP in a VC firm focusing on the future of work", who thinks that many (most?) of the challenges of the "permanently flipped workplace" can be solved with the combination of SASS tooling and essentially mission statements. I'm sorry but this type of advice is neither actionable or helpful: "Establish and communicate clear guidelines.." "Engage managers in building the right workflow for their respective teams." "Do whatever is necessary to achieve executive-level clarity on your priorities, values, and goals" "Interview team leaders and managers on what unites them as a team in both theory and in practice." ...And on it goes. The only thing I can conclude is that in this flipped-around future of work everyone works in HR.

Izkata 6y ago
> SASS tooling Alright, so this is the third time I've seen this today - is it an acronym I'm not aware of, or is it a typo/autocorrect of "SaaS tooling"? The only SASS that comes to mind is Syntactically-Awesome StyleSheets, which makes no sense in context.