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You get exercise and some level of mind-body training. That raises it above the most frivolous of time wasting at least. I think you can get a lot out of most m

You get exercise and some level of mind-body training. That raises it above the most frivolous of time wasting at least. I think you can get a lot out of most media as well, but it doesn't necessarily have the same default utility as physical activity.

baybal2 6y ago
> “MMA fighter claims that martial arts is not a waste of time and that other hobbies are.” > What’s the discussion to be had here? Just one biased talking head trying to raise the way he spends his free time above others. Being good at killing people is very good skill to have if somebody else is trying to kill you.
- baybal2 6y ago
  A less dramatic way to say that self defence skills are quite useful, and can extend your lifetime if you do not happen to live in a civilised country.
grumple 6y ago
You can do that with video games as well. See: Wii fit, Beat Saber, many other vr games.
- yomly 6y ago
  How deep have you gone on a physical activity/sport? I would posit the depth simply isn't there in those vr games. Beat saber and DDR might be ok but the skill / coordination element isn't quite the same as learning various techniques well in a martial art (or sport like tennis/soccer)
  - dgellow 6y ago
    DDR can be crazy hard! If you try to reach a good level you definitely are at the level of exercises and techniques of a more general sport. Also, it doesn't have to be virtual versus real world, for example I found Ring Fit: Adventure on Switch to be a very good introduction to running, fitness, or yoga depending on the exercises that you select. It's a very fun way to setup a casual sport routine that you can then expend in something more serious if you want to.
    - yomly 6y ago
      Yeah I mentioned DDR cos at a high level it probably is getting much closer to sport. Ring fit looks good I wanted to get it actually. I bet it must be useful during lockdown!
  - mrob 6y ago
    The problem with DDR is that holding onto the bar is accepted competitively. I didn't know that when I played, and as the ignorant scrub[0] I was I got good enough to pass a 10-footer without touching the bar. That certainly required a high level of coordination. But it was also doing it wrong, and I think it's a failure of game design that the correct way to play is essentially just tapping buttons with your feet. [0] http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
    - willis936 6y ago
      Have you played DDR while holding onto the bar? It’s serious cardio.
      - mrob 6y ago
        It's not even close to playing without touching the bar.
  - grumple 6y ago
    Funny you should mention! I'm a juggler of a decently high level. I'd say the coordination required to do advanced tricks with 3+ things of various shapes is pretty high. Not much of a workout, though it does wear on your joints a lot. I used to practice jiu jitsu for several years as well, and it's a great sport, but I'd say it's more cerebral - less hand/eye coordination, more patience and planning, with short bursts of speed/power. I'd argue the coordination element is pretty high with beat saber. It requires rhythm, speed, and accuracy. The fact that I'm a juggler and still can't beat expert+ songs without practicing them repeatedly (and have only done so for a few) after several months of playing speaks to how quick, practiced, and coordinated you need to be. Definitely more of a workout as well. I also used to play DDR in high school and could beat every song in that game; but that was after many nights of playing for hours, drenched in sweat.
willis936 6y ago
Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste. Don’t violate the golden rule and the hobby is fine. The only person who cares that your hobby is healthy is you. Don’t disrespect others. Martial arts is even worse by this metric because gamers don’t insult other peoples’ hobbies as often.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  > Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste. I don't think we actually believe that. We don't say that about something like heroin or masturbation. Also, your future-self doesn't necessarily agree with that either. Give your future-self a say in how you spend you time today because they're the one who has to live with it. "Time enjoyed while wasted wasn't time wasted!" tends to only be something present-you says to conveniently justify spending time in ways that will turn out to be unfulfilling with high opportunity costs.
  - willis936 6y ago
    Those things are often coupled with addiction, is self-destructive. Addiction from lack of a balanced life is an arguably preventable downward spiral. If you want to say video games fall in the same category, I would argue video games are to heroin as caffeine is to amphetamine. Additionally, things that people get addicted to are not the issue, but rather the life around the things that people are addicted to are the issue. Just look at the use of cell phones in the contemporary world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park On future-self: My future-self already makes my decisions. If they choose to appreciate art (as video games are) on a Sunday or repair some electronics older than me, or go on a walk, none of those things are wastes of time. The mere supposition that they are is obnoxious.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "I don't think we actually believe that. We don't say that about something like heroin or masturbation." A better analogy is between video game addiction and gambling addiction. Nobody denies that gambling addiction is a medical phenomenon despite being not being caused by drug dependency. (As an unrelated aside, the trifecta is Asian-style gacha games, which combine video game addiction, gambling addiction, and borderline-pornography addiction into one neat little package. Small wonder they draw in whales despite usually not being very good in terms of game mechanics.)

baybal2 6y ago

> “MMA fighter claims that martial arts is not a waste of time and that other hobbies are.” > What’s the discussion to be had here? Just one biased talking head trying to raise the way he spends his free time above others. Being good at killing people is very good skill to have if somebody else is trying to kill you.

baybal2 6y ago
A less dramatic way to say that self defence skills are quite useful, and can extend your lifetime if you do not happen to live in a civilised country.

grumple 6y ago

You can do that with video games as well. See: Wii fit, Beat Saber, many other vr games.

yomly 6y ago
How deep have you gone on a physical activity/sport? I would posit the depth simply isn't there in those vr games. Beat saber and DDR might be ok but the skill / coordination element isn't quite the same as learning various techniques well in a martial art (or sport like tennis/soccer)
- dgellow 6y ago
  DDR can be crazy hard! If you try to reach a good level you definitely are at the level of exercises and techniques of a more general sport. Also, it doesn't have to be virtual versus real world, for example I found Ring Fit: Adventure on Switch to be a very good introduction to running, fitness, or yoga depending on the exercises that you select. It's a very fun way to setup a casual sport routine that you can then expend in something more serious if you want to.
  - yomly 6y ago
    Yeah I mentioned DDR cos at a high level it probably is getting much closer to sport. Ring fit looks good I wanted to get it actually. I bet it must be useful during lockdown!
- mrob 6y ago
  The problem with DDR is that holding onto the bar is accepted competitively. I didn't know that when I played, and as the ignorant scrub[0] I was I got good enough to pass a 10-footer without touching the bar. That certainly required a high level of coordination. But it was also doing it wrong, and I think it's a failure of game design that the correct way to play is essentially just tapping buttons with your feet. [0] http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
  - willis936 6y ago
    Have you played DDR while holding onto the bar? It’s serious cardio.
    - mrob 6y ago
      It's not even close to playing without touching the bar.
- grumple 6y ago
  Funny you should mention! I'm a juggler of a decently high level. I'd say the coordination required to do advanced tricks with 3+ things of various shapes is pretty high. Not much of a workout, though it does wear on your joints a lot. I used to practice jiu jitsu for several years as well, and it's a great sport, but I'd say it's more cerebral - less hand/eye coordination, more patience and planning, with short bursts of speed/power. I'd argue the coordination element is pretty high with beat saber. It requires rhythm, speed, and accuracy. The fact that I'm a juggler and still can't beat expert+ songs without practicing them repeatedly (and have only done so for a few) after several months of playing speaks to how quick, practiced, and coordinated you need to be. Definitely more of a workout as well. I also used to play DDR in high school and could beat every song in that game; but that was after many nights of playing for hours, drenched in sweat.

willis936 6y ago

Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste. Don’t violate the golden rule and the hobby is fine. The only person who cares that your hobby is healthy is you. Don’t disrespect others. Martial arts is even worse by this metric because gamers don’t insult other peoples’ hobbies as often.

hombre_fatal 6y ago
> Spending free time for enjoyment can’t be considered a waste. I don't think we actually believe that. We don't say that about something like heroin or masturbation. Also, your future-self doesn't necessarily agree with that either. Give your future-self a say in how you spend you time today because they're the one who has to live with it. "Time enjoyed while wasted wasn't time wasted!" tends to only be something present-you says to conveniently justify spending time in ways that will turn out to be unfulfilling with high opportunity costs.
- willis936 6y ago
  Those things are often coupled with addiction, is self-destructive. Addiction from lack of a balanced life is an arguably preventable downward spiral. If you want to say video games fall in the same category, I would argue video games are to heroin as caffeine is to amphetamine. Additionally, things that people get addicted to are not the issue, but rather the life around the things that people are addicted to are the issue. Just look at the use of cell phones in the contemporary world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park On future-self: My future-self already makes my decisions. If they choose to appreciate art (as video games are) on a Sunday or repair some electronics older than me, or go on a walk, none of those things are wastes of time. The mere supposition that they are is obnoxious.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "I don't think we actually believe that. We don't say that about something like heroin or masturbation." A better analogy is between video game addiction and gambling addiction. Nobody denies that gambling addiction is a medical phenomenon despite being not being caused by drug dependency. (As an unrelated aside, the trifecta is Asian-style gacha games, which combine video game addiction, gambling addiction, and borderline-pornography addiction into one neat little package. Small wonder they draw in whales despite usually not being very good in terms of game mechanics.)