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It’s worth noting that the driver didn’t have their license suspended for adjusting their wipers. They had their license suspended because they crashed their ca

by akerl_ 6y ago

It’s worth noting that the driver didn’t have their license suspended for adjusting their wipers. They had their license suspended because they crashed their car while adjusting their wipers. In the court’s opinion, interacting with the touchscreen distracted the driver sufficiently to lead to the crash. The driver’s defense (that the touchscreen is a safety device because it also shows the speedometer) seems hard to fathom. Clearly if the driver was watching YouTube on the touchscreen, the fact that it also shows their speed wouldn’t have been relevant. It seems more concerning that Tesla’s wiper controls can’t be operated in manual mode w/o visual attention from the driver. I own a Model 3, and I don’t think I could reasonably change the wiper settings w/o looking at the screen, despite knowing where the UI options are and their general layout.

ceejayoz 6y ago
“It seems more concerning that Tesla’s wiper controls can’t be operated in manual mode w/o visual attention from the driver.“ The article says this: > the Tesla Model 3 is equipped with an analog wiper switch located on the wheel like most vehicles
- akerl_ 6y ago
  That’s technically true but in the least useful way in practice. The wiper switch on the left stalk has 2 behaviors: if you tap the button, the wiper swings a single time. If you hold the button, the wiper and wiper fluid activate for a handful of sweeps. The analog stalk doesn’t offer any other wiper controls, like the ability to modify wiper speed or enable/disable continuous wiper functionality. I’m not sure why the article includes that line without clarifying the specific nature of that interface.
  - SilasX 6y ago
    Why would you design it that way? I mean, if you’re going to have a manual wiper control anyway, why make it so limited compared to what every other car can do? This obsession with touchscreens over ones you can control by feel without looking[1] ... it’s ridiculous. [1] sorry, anyone know the standard term for that?
    - mcherm 6y ago
      > anyone know the standard term for that? I'm not sure what the standard term is either. I frequently use the term "tactile controls" to indicate controls that can be operated without looking at them. For what it's worth, I think essentially ALL controls intended to be used while in motion in a car ought to be "tactile controls" by that definition -- the operator's gaze is NOT available while operating the vehicle. (I'm OK if configuring bluetooth is done over a touchscreen, but NOT if turning on the radio or the windshield wipers is done that way.)
    - akerl_ 6y ago
      As somebody who is obviously not knowledgeable about why Tesla did it that way, but somebody who does own/drive a Model 3, I can only offer my conjecture: It makes the controls simpler in a way that makes the parts and assembly cheaper. The Model 3 seems like Tesla tried very hard to streamline (read: cut corners) anywhere they reasonably could as part of lowering the cost to manufacture the car, in order to hit a more reasonable price point. The stalks already have a known history of breakage, many folks have had to have them replaced in relatively young Model 3s. I suspect somebody at Tesla HQ decided that having additional twisting elements or more control surfaces on them would have further increased cost. Another potential rationale is that, from Tesla’s vantage point, those controls are vestigial. The automatic wiper sensor should handle wiper activation, rendering the stalk controls unnecessary. In practice, that sensor is still in need of further tuning. But if Tesla’s goal is to build the car of the future, it’s possible they’re willing to front-run the software in picking hardware choices.
      - waiseristy 6y ago
        Ford, Chevy, FCA, etc. wiper stalk design is ubiquitous even on extremely low price vehicles. They are even cheap to replace when they break. I'm betting you're closer on the latter
    - cavisne 6y ago
      There is no twisting part on the stalks in a model 3, so you only have the option of short press and long press. It is definitely the least safe part of the Model 3 imo. Having the rest of the controls on the screen is not a big deal but adjusting wiper settings can be important for safety and its not very intuitive.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    This is called the “mist” button, a dedicated button to operate the wiper exactly once, and every car I’ve ever driven had one. The button allows instant actuation of the wipers. There are times when you can get hit with water or mud unexpectedly so it’s nice to have. Any other adjustment can be made at a pre-planned moment with a single tap on the touchscreen, similar to checking blind spots or such. Note that pressing “mist” also shows the wiper adjustment controls on the bottom-left corner of the screen, so you don’t have to swipe to navigate to them.
    - akerl_ 6y ago
      I agree that it’s good to have the button there, and prior cars I’ve driven also have it. I don’t think the existence of that button or its utility is in dispute. It also doesn’t change my desire to have the ability to enable/disable continuous wiper operation via tactile control.
  - bartread 6y ago
    > I’m not sure why the article includes that line without clarifying the specific nature of that interface. Two possible reasons I can think of, but there may well be more. 1. Cynical take: like all news the article is written with a point of view. Sometimes communicating that point of view is more important to the publication than the facts. In this case I suppose it might better fit their narrative to make the driver seem even less sympathetic and even more of an idiot. 2. More straightforward take: they're simply ignorant and too pushed for time/under delivery pressure, or possibly (though less likely) too lazy, to dig deeper into why the driver might use the touchscreen rather than the switch, not realising that the switch offers no ability to adjust wiper speed. Either way, to me this makes the story less interesting and less useful. It could, for example, have provided an opportunity to challenge Tesla on one of their less than stellar decisions on interior and driving ergonomics. That's an opportunity missed. (I mean, I suppose we're doing that here, which is no bad thing.) DISCLAIMER: I don't own and have never driven a Tesla so am unfamiliar with the division of responsibilities between touchscreen and physical switchgear. This makes (2) seem more likely to me but only based on my own experience.
  - mnm1 6y ago
    Wow. It's hard to fathom how this car got approval to be on the road. Windshield wipers are a core component of a car. A car without a proper control for them should not be on the road. Every time it rains, Tesla drivers need to fiddle with the touchscreen? What's next, send a text message to turn on the lights at night?
- arghwhat 6y ago
  > the Tesla Model 3 is equipped with an analog wiper switch located on the wheel like most vehicles I find this to be an ironic proof of how touch screens are a vastly inferior interface to physical buttons.
- userbinator 6y ago
  This is a tangential point, but I find the use of the word "analog" for "physical control" very weird. To me, an "analog wiper switch" signifies something very different, and a system found on a lot of other cars: a knob connected to a potentiometer to allow adjusting the wipe delay infinitely, possibly combined with pure analog time-delay circuitry. Something like this: https://siber-sonic.com/auto/sl6/delaywiper.html https://siber-sonic.com/auto/sl6/delaywiper.html
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Aside: does anyone still sell these wipers? Ever car I have ever used generally has a fairly infuriating set of options which I like to call the "anti-Goldilocks speeds" :(
CorruptVoices 6y ago
5+ years ago people complained about this problem on Ford vehicles. Now that Tesla does it, people love it. Is there a psychological name for this?
- ebg13 6y ago
  > Now that Tesla does it, people love it. No they don't. Nobody ever applauds this. People buy Teslas despite the touchscreen being the only way to do certain things, not because of it. > Is there a psychological name for this? "Making things up"?
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Nope, I've actually had people defend this. Not convincingly, but they try. I believe the official argument is that the controls on the actual steering wheel are programmable, so you don't usually need the touchscreen. But I mean.. Most people don't bother doing this kind of thing... They're lazy... Hell, I'm an emacs user for 30 years, but I've only ever used the default keybindings... This touch screen obsession is why I won't buy a Model 3 or Y, despite being a potential customer.
- Bishonen88 6y ago
  Yes, the term you're looking for is called "Elon Musk"
- akerl_ 6y ago
  I can only speak for myself, but I think the lack of core vehicle controls on analog / tactile interfaces is a major failure. That’s an opinion I hold for Tesla as well as other car manufacturers who have shifted vehicle controls to touchscreens. I do love many other things about Tesla cars. I think generally, the sum total of things I love about the Model 3 outweighs the things I hate. For example, the automate wiper sensor is good enough that I generally don’t have to interact with the manual control, which mitigates my day-to-day distaste for it. Regarding the name for people who hold conflicting views, I think “hypocritical” gets you pretty close.
- asaph 6y ago
asaph 6y ago
> Clearly if the driver was watching YouTube on the touchscreen, the fact that it also shows their speed wouldn’t have been relevant. Watching YouTube (or Netflix or any of the other supported streaming services) on the touchscreen while the car is in motion, is not currently possible in Tesla vehicles. This is by design. Eventually, when fully autonomous driving is supported, watching videos on the touchscreen while the vehicle is in motion might be allowed.
- akerl_ 6y ago
  Sort of. You can use the web browser while the car is in motion, and there are multiple sites devoted to streamlining media viewing via the browser. The browser can’t operate in full-screen mode while the car is in motion. You’re correct that the native video apps are disabled while the car is in motion.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mrfusion 6y ago
We’re really going backwards in car ui design. In my older car I can do almost everything by touch without looking.
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  In my Saab, I can actuate everything required to drive without looking and while wearing winter gloves!
  - Gravityloss 6y ago
    Clearly, the reason why Saab went under. The buttons cost too much!
fortran77 6y ago
> It seems more concerning that Tesla’s wiper controls can’t be operated in manual mode w/o visual attention from the driver. I own a Model 3, and I don’t think I could reasonably change the wiper settings w/o looking at the screen, despite knowing where the UI options are and their general layout. Even the budget no-frills "3", while lacking a lot of things that makes a Tesla a Tesla, has a more traditional wiper control. There's no reason to futz with the touchscreen.
- akerl_ 6y ago
  Where? The only non-touchscreen wiper controls, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, are the push-button on the left stalk. Those controls offer a short-press for a single swipe of the wiper blades, or a long press for wiper fluid and a handful of swipes. Both modes technically control the wipers, but they definitely do not remove the requirement to use the touch screen for wiper control.

by akerl_ 6y ago

ceejayoz 6y ago

“It seems more concerning that Tesla’s wiper controls can’t be operated in manual mode w/o visual attention from the driver.“ The article says this: > the Tesla Model 3 is equipped with an analog wiper switch located on the wheel like most vehicles

akerl_ 6y ago
That’s technically true but in the least useful way in practice. The wiper switch on the left stalk has 2 behaviors: if you tap the button, the wiper swings a single time. If you hold the button, the wiper and wiper fluid activate for a handful of sweeps. The analog stalk doesn’t offer any other wiper controls, like the ability to modify wiper speed or enable/disable continuous wiper functionality. I’m not sure why the article includes that line without clarifying the specific nature of that interface.
- SilasX 6y ago
  Why would you design it that way? I mean, if you’re going to have a manual wiper control anyway, why make it so limited compared to what every other car can do? This obsession with touchscreens over ones you can control by feel without looking[1] ... it’s ridiculous. [1] sorry, anyone know the standard term for that?
  - mcherm 6y ago
    > anyone know the standard term for that? I'm not sure what the standard term is either. I frequently use the term "tactile controls" to indicate controls that can be operated without looking at them. For what it's worth, I think essentially ALL controls intended to be used while in motion in a car ought to be "tactile controls" by that definition -- the operator's gaze is NOT available while operating the vehicle. (I'm OK if configuring bluetooth is done over a touchscreen, but NOT if turning on the radio or the windshield wipers is done that way.)
  - akerl_ 6y ago
    As somebody who is obviously not knowledgeable about why Tesla did it that way, but somebody who does own/drive a Model 3, I can only offer my conjecture: It makes the controls simpler in a way that makes the parts and assembly cheaper. The Model 3 seems like Tesla tried very hard to streamline (read: cut corners) anywhere they reasonably could as part of lowering the cost to manufacture the car, in order to hit a more reasonable price point. The stalks already have a known history of breakage, many folks have had to have them replaced in relatively young Model 3s. I suspect somebody at Tesla HQ decided that having additional twisting elements or more control surfaces on them would have further increased cost. Another potential rationale is that, from Tesla’s vantage point, those controls are vestigial. The automatic wiper sensor should handle wiper activation, rendering the stalk controls unnecessary. In practice, that sensor is still in need of further tuning. But if Tesla’s goal is to build the car of the future, it’s possible they’re willing to front-run the software in picking hardware choices.
    - waiseristy 6y ago
      Ford, Chevy, FCA, etc. wiper stalk design is ubiquitous even on extremely low price vehicles. They are even cheap to replace when they break. I'm betting you're closer on the latter
  - cavisne 6y ago
    There is no twisting part on the stalks in a model 3, so you only have the option of short press and long press. It is definitely the least safe part of the Model 3 imo. Having the rest of the controls on the screen is not a big deal but adjusting wiper settings can be important for safety and its not very intuitive.
- zaroth 6y ago
  This is called the “mist” button, a dedicated button to operate the wiper exactly once, and every car I’ve ever driven had one. The button allows instant actuation of the wipers. There are times when you can get hit with water or mud unexpectedly so it’s nice to have. Any other adjustment can be made at a pre-planned moment with a single tap on the touchscreen, similar to checking blind spots or such. Note that pressing “mist” also shows the wiper adjustment controls on the bottom-left corner of the screen, so you don’t have to swipe to navigate to them.
  - akerl_ 6y ago
    I agree that it’s good to have the button there, and prior cars I’ve driven also have it. I don’t think the existence of that button or its utility is in dispute. It also doesn’t change my desire to have the ability to enable/disable continuous wiper operation via tactile control.
- bartread 6y ago
  > I’m not sure why the article includes that line without clarifying the specific nature of that interface. Two possible reasons I can think of, but there may well be more. 1. Cynical take: like all news the article is written with a point of view. Sometimes communicating that point of view is more important to the publication than the facts. In this case I suppose it might better fit their narrative to make the driver seem even less sympathetic and even more of an idiot. 2. More straightforward take: they're simply ignorant and too pushed for time/under delivery pressure, or possibly (though less likely) too lazy, to dig deeper into why the driver might use the touchscreen rather than the switch, not realising that the switch offers no ability to adjust wiper speed. Either way, to me this makes the story less interesting and less useful. It could, for example, have provided an opportunity to challenge Tesla on one of their less than stellar decisions on interior and driving ergonomics. That's an opportunity missed. (I mean, I suppose we're doing that here, which is no bad thing.) DISCLAIMER: I don't own and have never driven a Tesla so am unfamiliar with the division of responsibilities between touchscreen and physical switchgear. This makes (2) seem more likely to me but only based on my own experience.
- mnm1 6y ago
  Wow. It's hard to fathom how this car got approval to be on the road. Windshield wipers are a core component of a car. A car without a proper control for them should not be on the road. Every time it rains, Tesla drivers need to fiddle with the touchscreen? What's next, send a text message to turn on the lights at night?
arghwhat 6y ago
> the Tesla Model 3 is equipped with an analog wiper switch located on the wheel like most vehicles I find this to be an ironic proof of how touch screens are a vastly inferior interface to physical buttons.
userbinator 6y ago
This is a tangential point, but I find the use of the word "analog" for "physical control" very weird. To me, an "analog wiper switch" signifies something very different, and a system found on a lot of other cars: a knob connected to a potentiometer to allow adjusting the wipe delay infinitely, possibly combined with pure analog time-delay circuitry. Something like this: https://siber-sonic.com/auto/sl6/delaywiper.html https://siber-sonic.com/auto/sl6/delaywiper.html
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Aside: does anyone still sell these wipers? Ever car I have ever used generally has a fairly infuriating set of options which I like to call the "anti-Goldilocks speeds" :(

CorruptVoices 6y ago

5+ years ago people complained about this problem on Ford vehicles. Now that Tesla does it, people love it. Is there a psychological name for this?

ebg13 6y ago
> Now that Tesla does it, people love it. No they don't. Nobody ever applauds this. People buy Teslas despite the touchscreen being the only way to do certain things, not because of it. > Is there a psychological name for this? "Making things up"?
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Nope, I've actually had people defend this. Not convincingly, but they try. I believe the official argument is that the controls on the actual steering wheel are programmable, so you don't usually need the touchscreen. But I mean.. Most people don't bother doing this kind of thing... They're lazy... Hell, I'm an emacs user for 30 years, but I've only ever used the default keybindings... This touch screen obsession is why I won't buy a Model 3 or Y, despite being a potential customer.
Bishonen88 6y ago
Yes, the term you're looking for is called "Elon Musk"
akerl_ 6y ago
I can only speak for myself, but I think the lack of core vehicle controls on analog / tactile interfaces is a major failure. That’s an opinion I hold for Tesla as well as other car manufacturers who have shifted vehicle controls to touchscreens. I do love many other things about Tesla cars. I think generally, the sum total of things I love about the Model 3 outweighs the things I hate. For example, the automate wiper sensor is good enough that I generally don’t have to interact with the manual control, which mitigates my day-to-day distaste for it. Regarding the name for people who hold conflicting views, I think “hypocritical” gets you pretty close.
asaph 6y ago

asaph 6y ago

> Clearly if the driver was watching YouTube on the touchscreen, the fact that it also shows their speed wouldn’t have been relevant. Watching YouTube (or Netflix or any of the other supported streaming services) on the touchscreen while the car is in motion, is not currently possible in Tesla vehicles. This is by design. Eventually, when fully autonomous driving is supported, watching videos on the touchscreen while the vehicle is in motion might be allowed.

akerl_ 6y ago
Sort of. You can use the web browser while the car is in motion, and there are multiple sites devoted to streamlining media viewing via the browser. The browser can’t operate in full-screen mode while the car is in motion. You’re correct that the native video apps are disabled while the car is in motion.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mrfusion 6y ago

We’re really going backwards in car ui design. In my older car I can do almost everything by touch without looking.

LeifCarrotson 6y ago
In my Saab, I can actuate everything required to drive without looking and while wearing winter gloves!
- Gravityloss 6y ago
  Clearly, the reason why Saab went under. The buttons cost too much!

fortran77 6y ago

> It seems more concerning that Tesla’s wiper controls can’t be operated in manual mode w/o visual attention from the driver. I own a Model 3, and I don’t think I could reasonably change the wiper settings w/o looking at the screen, despite knowing where the UI options are and their general layout. Even the budget no-frills "3", while lacking a lot of things that makes a Tesla a Tesla, has a more traditional wiper control. There's no reason to futz with the touchscreen.

akerl_ 6y ago
Where? The only non-touchscreen wiper controls, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, are the push-button on the left stalk. Those controls offer a short-press for a single swipe of the wiper blades, or a long press for wiper fluid and a handful of swipes. Both modes technically control the wipers, but they definitely do not remove the requirement to use the touch screen for wiper control.