7 ms·

>and there's very little change happening. There's honestly a lot happening and changing. Obviously you won't see it by buying "HVAC" junk from a box store. Wh

by esaym 6y ago

>and there's very little change happening. There's honestly a lot happening and changing. Obviously you won't see it by buying "HVAC" junk from a box store. What this person should have done is paid an actual HVAC tech to install a ductless mini-split [0]. It would have been a heck of a lot more efficient. He states his one unit is drawing 10 amps (110 volt I assume). Whereas my american standard 4 ton (48,000 btu) unit draws 10 amps as well (240 volt) and cools a 2200 square ft house in 100+ degree texas weather with an electric bill usually not higher than $120 per month (1200 - 1400 kwh or so). By comparison, at my old house (which was half the size, 1100 sq ft) with a much older 12 Seer unit, my electric bill was regularly over $200. I measured that unit at drawing 18 amps (at 240 volt) and it was only a 3 ton 36,000 btu out door unit. The latest and greatest 21/22 seer units are even more efficient than my current one mentioned above (which is probably only 17 seer). [0]: https://www.americanstandardair.com/products/heating-and-cooling/ductless/ https://www.americanstandardair.com/products/heating-and-coo...

rtlfe 6y ago
> What this person should have done is You can't say what somebody "should have done" without knowing a lot more details about their life.
dhbanes 6y ago
Yeah, he should have just spend a few grand on a mini split system to stay cool for one summer at home. Makes sense.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  Why do they cost so much in the US? I can buy a decent split unit for $400-$500 + around $150 for installation. Installation will no doubt be more expensive in the US, but there is no reason for AC itself to be (if anything, most kinds of hardware seem to generally be cheaper in US than in Europe).
  - briHass 6y ago
    Largely because we have an HVAC cartel that charges insane hourly rates for even the simplest jobs. To be fair, a Mitsubishi mini split is going to run closer to $1200-$2000 for the unit itself, but you can expect to pay $2000+ to install on top of that, depending on how hard the job is. I suppose it's hard to complain too much. HVAC installers need to have some decent technical background, troubleshooting skills, and their bodies tend to get injured/broken by the time they're in their late 40s like most manual labor trades. A HVAC installer/tech can make $80K or more a year, which makes it one of the few jobs still out there where you can make a decent middle class income without tons of schooling.
    - balfirevic 6y ago
      That's interesting, I see some lower-end Mitsubishi models for $600 here.
    - masklinn 6y ago
      > you can expect to pay $2000+ to install on top of that, depending on how hard the job is. Installing a mini split is nowhere the difficulty of an HVAC though, assuming your have the electrical circuit (which I'd guess would be an electrician's job not HVAC) it's a few hours' work, at least for a simple case and if the installer knows what they're doing: pierce the wall, mount the external unit, mount the internal unit, connect the two, charge[0], done. By "simple" I mean a 1:1 setup with both units mounted on the same wall (and a wall-mounted indoor unit). Obviously a more complicated setup (multi-zone, slim duct, more distance between the two units) would take more time and be more expensive. I can see $2000 for a non-trivial multi-zone setup. [0] if you're handy there are mini-splits sold specifically for DIY installations which come pre-charged, though that means the pipes won't exactly fit the distance I guess
      - briHass 6y ago
        It's essentially the same (unless you use one of the DIY kits with pre-charged lines) as a full sized split system (traditional AC unit.) You (should) pressure test your lines and vacuum them out before releasing the charge. You also have to get a create a really good flare connection. In addition, running the electrical is usually done by the HVAC company and setting up the mounting pad for the outdoor unit. I completely agree that it isn't rocket science, and it's well within the realm of a skilled DIYer with about $250 in specialized tools. However, I can see why an HVAC company charges as much as they do. For an average install (not dead simple), it's probably 5-6 hours of labor, they have to pay for the company equipment, vehicles, health insurance, permits (my township requires one for a mini), taxes, etc.
p1mrx 6y ago
Installing a mini-split would be a year-long project, including HOA negotiations, architectural design, electrical load calculations, city permits, and invasive construction. It's not the sort of thing you'd want to attempt at the beginning of a pandemic (or ever, for most people.) Given the orders of magnitude less work required to find a product and click "Buy", it'd greatly benefit society for portable A/C manufacturers to compete on efficiency.
- troydavis 6y ago
  > a year-long project, including HOA negotiations, architectural design, electrical load calculations, city permits, and invasive construction Obviously only you know your situation, but just in case any other readers are considering a mini-split: it doesn't have to be this way and it typically isn't. From firsthand experience installing Mitsubishi mini-splits in multi-unit buildings in very regulated cities, a typical condo installation takes 2 days, including running power from an electrical panel that's not in the unit. A reasonable HOA can often answer in a week or two unless you're the first person to install a mini-split in the building. Larger buildings often recommend specific HVAC contractors. Your contractor will apply for HVAC and/or electrical permits online with very basic drawings; they're often issued immediately ("over-the-counter"), subject to field inspection. There's generally one inspection after it's installed. A good contractor will handle almost all of this. Basically, it can be complicated but it doesn't need to take a ton of calendar time. Other than cost and needing outdoor space for the condenser, the hardest challenges you & your contractor will encounter are running new electrical circuits from the panel and draining condensate from the indoor head.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    > are running new electrical circuits Why is this needed? Is it because the electricity in the US is at 120V? Over here (Europe) you can just plug the cable from the indoor unit into the electrical outlet.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Depends, the lower btu units can plug in to any outlet, but even in Europe you can only get so much power. Regardless, ac draws enough power that you want it on a dedicated circuit no matter where you are. Sharing that outlets with anything else is likely to result in annoying breaker trips when you overload the circuit.
erik_seaberg 6y ago
Mini-split looks like a good design, but our landlord would not be happy about our leaving behind a 3" hole in an exterior wall.
- masklinn 6y ago
  If you have a good relationship with your landlord (and intend of staying some time), might be worth discussing collaboration and leaving the AC when you move? A unit with AC would command a higher rent for the next tentant.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Through wall designs, like you see in cheap motels, require an opening in the wall. Mini-spits have an outdoor unit and an indoor unit connected by two hoses. The indoor unit basically screws to the wall. You do need a hole through the wall for the hoses but that's it. As a result they are cheap to and quick to install. They are also very efficient.
  - masklinn 6y ago
    > You do need a hole through the wall for the hoses but that's it. That's what they're pointing out. It's not a huge hole but it's still a hole going through the wall, and if they rent and buy the unit with their own money they'd be leaving with it, leaving that hole in the exterior wall. 3" is probably on the upper bound of what you need but it's not wrong. And it's not like the landlord would be much happier with a 2" hole.
eigenvector 6y ago
One of the biggest reasons portable air conditioners exist is for apartments. It's something anyone can buy without having to get permission from their landlord to make modifications to the property. So I would not compare them directly to anything that cannot be installed by a tenant without additional permission.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  And landlords have no incentives to install one for you. That's where regulation steps in (in normal countries)...
bradly 6y ago
Fwiw I was told I needed to get a permit and have a 220 line ran to install a mini-split in my house. That hassle put it out of contention for me and my not be an option for people renting.
- bradlys 6y ago
  You'll need to run some kind of line for any kind of mini-split. Seems kinda moot point if it's 220 vs 110. Anything that isn't removed and evidence of install hidden within less than a day is probably not going to be doable with a rental.

by esaym 6y ago

rtlfe 6y ago

> What this person should have done is You can't say what somebody "should have done" without knowing a lot more details about their life.

dhbanes 6y ago

Yeah, he should have just spend a few grand on a mini split system to stay cool for one summer at home. Makes sense.

balfirevic 6y ago
Why do they cost so much in the US? I can buy a decent split unit for $400-$500 + around $150 for installation. Installation will no doubt be more expensive in the US, but there is no reason for AC itself to be (if anything, most kinds of hardware seem to generally be cheaper in US than in Europe).
- briHass 6y ago
  Largely because we have an HVAC cartel that charges insane hourly rates for even the simplest jobs. To be fair, a Mitsubishi mini split is going to run closer to $1200-$2000 for the unit itself, but you can expect to pay $2000+ to install on top of that, depending on how hard the job is. I suppose it's hard to complain too much. HVAC installers need to have some decent technical background, troubleshooting skills, and their bodies tend to get injured/broken by the time they're in their late 40s like most manual labor trades. A HVAC installer/tech can make $80K or more a year, which makes it one of the few jobs still out there where you can make a decent middle class income without tons of schooling.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    That's interesting, I see some lower-end Mitsubishi models for $600 here.
  - masklinn 6y ago
    > you can expect to pay $2000+ to install on top of that, depending on how hard the job is. Installing a mini split is nowhere the difficulty of an HVAC though, assuming your have the electrical circuit (which I'd guess would be an electrician's job not HVAC) it's a few hours' work, at least for a simple case and if the installer knows what they're doing: pierce the wall, mount the external unit, mount the internal unit, connect the two, charge[0], done. By "simple" I mean a 1:1 setup with both units mounted on the same wall (and a wall-mounted indoor unit). Obviously a more complicated setup (multi-zone, slim duct, more distance between the two units) would take more time and be more expensive. I can see $2000 for a non-trivial multi-zone setup. [0] if you're handy there are mini-splits sold specifically for DIY installations which come pre-charged, though that means the pipes won't exactly fit the distance I guess
    - briHass 6y ago
      It's essentially the same (unless you use one of the DIY kits with pre-charged lines) as a full sized split system (traditional AC unit.) You (should) pressure test your lines and vacuum them out before releasing the charge. You also have to get a create a really good flare connection. In addition, running the electrical is usually done by the HVAC company and setting up the mounting pad for the outdoor unit. I completely agree that it isn't rocket science, and it's well within the realm of a skilled DIYer with about $250 in specialized tools. However, I can see why an HVAC company charges as much as they do. For an average install (not dead simple), it's probably 5-6 hours of labor, they have to pay for the company equipment, vehicles, health insurance, permits (my township requires one for a mini), taxes, etc.

p1mrx 6y ago

Installing a mini-split would be a year-long project, including HOA negotiations, architectural design, electrical load calculations, city permits, and invasive construction. It's not the sort of thing you'd want to attempt at the beginning of a pandemic (or ever, for most people.) Given the orders of magnitude less work required to find a product and click "Buy", it'd greatly benefit society for portable A/C manufacturers to compete on efficiency.

troydavis 6y ago
> a year-long project, including HOA negotiations, architectural design, electrical load calculations, city permits, and invasive construction Obviously only you know your situation, but just in case any other readers are considering a mini-split: it doesn't have to be this way and it typically isn't. From firsthand experience installing Mitsubishi mini-splits in multi-unit buildings in very regulated cities, a typical condo installation takes 2 days, including running power from an electrical panel that's not in the unit. A reasonable HOA can often answer in a week or two unless you're the first person to install a mini-split in the building. Larger buildings often recommend specific HVAC contractors. Your contractor will apply for HVAC and/or electrical permits online with very basic drawings; they're often issued immediately ("over-the-counter"), subject to field inspection. There's generally one inspection after it's installed. A good contractor will handle almost all of this. Basically, it can be complicated but it doesn't need to take a ton of calendar time. Other than cost and needing outdoor space for the condenser, the hardest challenges you & your contractor will encounter are running new electrical circuits from the panel and draining condensate from the indoor head.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > are running new electrical circuits Why is this needed? Is it because the electricity in the US is at 120V? Over here (Europe) you can just plug the cable from the indoor unit into the electrical outlet.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Depends, the lower btu units can plug in to any outlet, but even in Europe you can only get so much power. Regardless, ac draws enough power that you want it on a dedicated circuit no matter where you are. Sharing that outlets with anything else is likely to result in annoying breaker trips when you overload the circuit.

erik_seaberg 6y ago

Mini-split looks like a good design, but our landlord would not be happy about our leaving behind a 3" hole in an exterior wall.

masklinn 6y ago
If you have a good relationship with your landlord (and intend of staying some time), might be worth discussing collaboration and leaving the AC when you move? A unit with AC would command a higher rent for the next tentant.
Gibbon1 6y ago
Through wall designs, like you see in cheap motels, require an opening in the wall. Mini-spits have an outdoor unit and an indoor unit connected by two hoses. The indoor unit basically screws to the wall. You do need a hole through the wall for the hoses but that's it. As a result they are cheap to and quick to install. They are also very efficient.
- masklinn 6y ago
  > You do need a hole through the wall for the hoses but that's it. That's what they're pointing out. It's not a huge hole but it's still a hole going through the wall, and if they rent and buy the unit with their own money they'd be leaving with it, leaving that hole in the exterior wall. 3" is probably on the upper bound of what you need but it's not wrong. And it's not like the landlord would be much happier with a 2" hole.

eigenvector 6y ago

One of the biggest reasons portable air conditioners exist is for apartments. It's something anyone can buy without having to get permission from their landlord to make modifications to the property. So I would not compare them directly to anything that cannot be installed by a tenant without additional permission.

dzhiurgis 6y ago
And landlords have no incentives to install one for you. That's where regulation steps in (in normal countries)...

bradly 6y ago

Fwiw I was told I needed to get a permit and have a 220 line ran to install a mini-split in my house. That hassle put it out of contention for me and my not be an option for people renting.

bradlys 6y ago
You'll need to run some kind of line for any kind of mini-split. Seems kinda moot point if it's 220 vs 110. Anything that isn't removed and evidence of install hidden within less than a day is probably not going to be doable with a rental.