13 ms·

As much as I agree and being from a "third world" country myself, I can still remember China banning Facebook and Google in 2009/2010. Everyone has had to bend

by dkobia 6y ago

As much as I agree and being from a "third world" country myself, I can still remember China banning Facebook and Google in 2009/2010. Everyone has had to bend over backwards to gain access to the Chinese market while giving them free reign to the rest of the world.

andrewPP 6y ago
Facebook and Google quit China because they didn't want to obey the speech control policy which not as democratic as in the U.S. They could have continued to operate in China had they chosen to follow the rules set up by Chinese regulators. With the TikTok it is a different story. They are willing to obey all laws of US and the Trump admistration still wants to ban it without sound reason. This is ridiculous from my point of view because the authoritarian Chinese government allows the US companies to operate in China when they follow their rules, but the democratic US government doesn't allow Chinese companies to operate in the US when they do obey US laws. The only explanation to me is that the president is thinking in a way similar to curing COVID with disinfectant injection.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  How facile to compare the situations of companies "when they follow [China's] rules" and "when they obey US laws" as if they are equivalent. America is being arbitrary, capricious, and unfair, in contradiction to the neutral and generally applicable law in America. But China's legal system has been arbitrary and capricious for decades, and is rotten to the core, consistently elevating the whims of the ruling party over rights and due process. To use nonsense numbers: the US is designed to be 0% arbitrary but is being 20% arbitrary here. China is designed to be 90% arbitrary all the time. Clearly means China can keep out all the firms and be virtuous, but when the US keeps out any firms for any reason they're unfair and wicked!
  - andrewPP 6y ago
    The problem with the Chinese government/legal system is well known for long and most Chinese people wish it can improve over time. It is weird to see that some people in the US wants to celebrate and justify the deterioration of their designed-to-be-perfect system.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      Who’s celebrating? In this thread? I’m just pointing out the hypocrites crying “hypocrisy!”
      - chrischen 6y ago
        It would be hypocrisy if China wasn’t a heavily planned market economy that they are in fact claiming to be. You have two systems, and one of them is having doubts about the efficacy of its own system. In theory at least, China’s planning either results in less competitive alternatives, or eventually it would have to open up its economy (when the playground is more fair) to foster its own innovation. If it never allows competition then innovation would languish. If we take action in contradiction to this natural series of economic events, we would be hypocrites as we’d be losing faith in our core economic beliefs.
  - chrischen 6y ago
    Yea let’s admit it, China’s right. We should all go to a planned economy like them because we no longer believe a free market will work (sarcasm).
_6fmb 6y ago
No they didn't, both Facebook and Google decided to quit themselves. Remember Dragonfly? Google just tried to get back into China THIS YEAR and was blocked by the US government. It's the US that's closing access to China not the other way around.
- georgeburdell 6y ago
  > Remember Dragonfly? Google just tried to get back into China THIS YEAR and was blocked by the US government. Could you substantiate this claim? Regarding China and Dragonfly, I only remember there being employee and governmental criticism, but no outright ban from doing business in China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-employees-go-public-protest-china-search-engine-dragonfly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-...
  - _6fmb 6y ago
    Oh please like we need a formal ban to shut things down, it's like America not banning tiktok right? There were hearings and calls by US politicians to stop Dragonfly, after which it was stopped.
    - praveenperera 6y ago
      China bot
- albacur 6y ago
  Wrong, Facebook was blocked in China following the July 2009 Ürümqi riots because Facebook refused to release information about Xinjiang independence activists. In March 2009, China blocked access to Google's YouTube due to footage showing Chinese security forces beating Tibetans. Access to other Google online services was denied to users arbitrarily. The search engine remained operational under the condition that the government could filter the search results. In January 2010, Google announced that, in response to a Chinese-originated hacking attack on them and other US tech companies, they were no longer willing to censor searches in China and would pull out of the country completely. Also, the government didn't "block" Dragonfly. Google terminated the project after its own employees protested it and politicians criticized it. (All the above from Wikipedia either as direct quotes or paraphrased for brevity.)

by dkobia 6y ago

andrewPP 6y ago

Facebook and Google quit China because they didn't want to obey the speech control policy which not as democratic as in the U.S. They could have continued to operate in China had they chosen to follow the rules set up by Chinese regulators. With the TikTok it is a different story. They are willing to obey all laws of US and the Trump admistration still wants to ban it without sound reason. This is ridiculous from my point of view because the authoritarian Chinese government allows the US companies to operate in China when they follow their rules, but the democratic US government doesn't allow Chinese companies to operate in the US when they do obey US laws. The only explanation to me is that the president is thinking in a way similar to curing COVID with disinfectant injection.

fennecfoxen 6y ago
How facile to compare the situations of companies "when they follow [China's] rules" and "when they obey US laws" as if they are equivalent. America is being arbitrary, capricious, and unfair, in contradiction to the neutral and generally applicable law in America. But China's legal system has been arbitrary and capricious for decades, and is rotten to the core, consistently elevating the whims of the ruling party over rights and due process. To use nonsense numbers: the US is designed to be 0% arbitrary but is being 20% arbitrary here. China is designed to be 90% arbitrary all the time. Clearly means China can keep out all the firms and be virtuous, but when the US keeps out any firms for any reason they're unfair and wicked!
- andrewPP 6y ago
  The problem with the Chinese government/legal system is well known for long and most Chinese people wish it can improve over time. It is weird to see that some people in the US wants to celebrate and justify the deterioration of their designed-to-be-perfect system.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    Who’s celebrating? In this thread? I’m just pointing out the hypocrites crying “hypocrisy!”
    - chrischen 6y ago
      It would be hypocrisy if China wasn’t a heavily planned market economy that they are in fact claiming to be. You have two systems, and one of them is having doubts about the efficacy of its own system. In theory at least, China’s planning either results in less competitive alternatives, or eventually it would have to open up its economy (when the playground is more fair) to foster its own innovation. If it never allows competition then innovation would languish. If we take action in contradiction to this natural series of economic events, we would be hypocrites as we’d be losing faith in our core economic beliefs.
- chrischen 6y ago
  Yea let’s admit it, China’s right. We should all go to a planned economy like them because we no longer believe a free market will work (sarcasm).

_6fmb 6y ago

No they didn't, both Facebook and Google decided to quit themselves. Remember Dragonfly? Google just tried to get back into China THIS YEAR and was blocked by the US government. It's the US that's closing access to China not the other way around.

georgeburdell 6y ago
> Remember Dragonfly? Google just tried to get back into China THIS YEAR and was blocked by the US government. Could you substantiate this claim? Regarding China and Dragonfly, I only remember there being employee and governmental criticism, but no outright ban from doing business in China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-employees-go-public-protest-china-search-engine-dragonfly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/27/google-...
- _6fmb 6y ago
  Oh please like we need a formal ban to shut things down, it's like America not banning tiktok right? There were hearings and calls by US politicians to stop Dragonfly, after which it was stopped.
  - praveenperera 6y ago
    China bot
albacur 6y ago
Wrong, Facebook was blocked in China following the July 2009 Ürümqi riots because Facebook refused to release information about Xinjiang independence activists. In March 2009, China blocked access to Google's YouTube due to footage showing Chinese security forces beating Tibetans. Access to other Google online services was denied to users arbitrarily. The search engine remained operational under the condition that the government could filter the search results. In January 2010, Google announced that, in response to a Chinese-originated hacking attack on them and other US tech companies, they were no longer willing to censor searches in China and would pull out of the country completely. Also, the government didn't "block" Dragonfly. Google terminated the project after its own employees protested it and politicians criticized it. (All the above from Wikipedia either as direct quotes or paraphrased for brevity.)