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> How exactly is this the case; I keep seeing attributions to these events that have no real basis or clear definitive metrics for doing it. Sorry, what are yo

> How exactly is this the case; I keep seeing attributions to these events that have no real basis or clear definitive metrics for doing it. Sorry, what are you asking for metrics on? What are you asking, "how ... is this the case?" These things have verifiably started happening or have happened. I really fail to see your point and am seeing enough watch words/phrases ("SJW", "Outrage Culture", etc.) where I feel like I"m being sealioned.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
I'm asking you to provide a very clear and defintive way to measure what you are describing, as in provide sources for your claims, which would be along the lines of 'on x date poster Y made this post and as a DIRECT result of this event this favourable action took place.' Its very simple to explain, but a lot harder to understand from my position to see how exactly this takes place without this. Because I can draw a straight line from the DHS being booted after people did this [1]. That's what 65 days of continual activist protests did, that then resumed as peaceful demonstrations for their cause only AFTER the DHS left. This could be seen in other other BLM protest in major cities, that were escalated because of Police. > sealioned... I don't even know what that means, but I fear this is the typical reaction when someone is confronted with trying to substantiate such a bold claim and cannot really do so, that is start to try and deviate from the points made with entirely irrelevant sensationalism. I asked you to provide substantial evidence for your claim. 1: https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/portland-protests-federal-courthouse-friday-july-31/283-1a26f601-b6de-4ef8-b8b5-b6c21d67144f https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/portland-pro...
- site-packages1 6y ago
  Ah I see, sealioning as below: Sealioning - A subtle form of trolling involving "bad-faith" questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum. The name "sea-lioning" comes from a Wondermark comic strip. You are asking me to educate you when you could just look at current events. If you're asking me to say "Protest X on Y date led to Z legislation/budget/change" then you know that's impossible, and in fact I can perhaps only think of a handful of times in U.S. history that this could be done. One has to look at the totality of the circumstances. I can confidently say, of course, that none of these changes would have happened without social media awareness leading to protests leading to action, and the social media awareness is close enough in the chain to be considered proximate cause. But, based on your lines of questioning and inquiry in your other comments, I'm guessing nothing will be able to convince you of this. See generally, from the definition of sealioning, "involving 'bad-faith' questions."
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > You are asking me to educate you when you could just look at current events. Ok, I see we're going no where and we're at the pointing fingers for asking the 'wrong questions' phase. I'll just ask one simple question then: for being such a strong advocate of this system, which I still refuse to call activism, have you gotten involved in this process and bring about change to your community? And if so, how? What are the impacts of your involvement, and how have they been shaped and formed from your presence on Social Media? Because if you saw the video I posted (specifically 2:52) you will see a Black Mother advocating that her actual physical presence in the previously named 'Wall of Moms' protesting against Federal DHS agents and were beaten and gassed as a result [1] is what will ensure that her children or grandchildren may not have to do so in the Future. I'd argue that kind of resolve only comes about when you are amongst like minded individuals, of all walks of Life, in pursuit of a commonly held goal. A keyboard and a screen will never be a replacement for that level of change. It's not that I dispute that there are forms of 'Hactivism,' DDOS attacks against Megacorps, things like the Panama papers/Blueleaks and Politically aligned trading/shorting comes to mind, but its just that I fail to see how that has anything to do let alone be achieved with what you've described thus far. 1: https://news.yahoo.com/wall-moms-sues-trump-administration-191300114.html https://news.yahoo.com/wall-moms-sues-trump-administration-1...
    - site-packages1 6y ago
      Hi, can you show me some metrics on the mother about whom you're speaking and the claim that their "children or grandchildren may not have to do so in the [f]uture." You seem awfully confident about that without any data to back it up, despite asking me for metrics on a similar claim I made. I hope that helps hold up a mirror to illustrate the difference between the burden of proof you place on others and the (lack of) burden of proof you place on yourself for the same things. (For the record I agree with the video, just illustrating the disconnect you seem to be showing). Past that, you're definitely conflating typing on a keyboard with lacking resolve, and showing up with having resolve. I've been to plenty of protests with people milling around on the outskirts not really doing anything, and seen plenty of people bring the fire on social media. Not that it matters for this at all, but because of social media I have become aware of opportunities to go out and use my skills to observe and film protests and that film has been used as evidence of police brutality that has helped get officers doing brutalizing removed from their posts. I don't want to get more specific than that here, and again it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

I'm asking you to provide a very clear and defintive way to measure what you are describing, as in provide sources for your claims, which would be along the lines of 'on x date poster Y made this post and as a DIRECT result of this event this favourable action took place.' Its very simple to explain, but a lot harder to understand from my position to see how exactly this takes place without this. Because I can draw a straight line from the DHS being booted after people did this [1]. That's what 65 days of continual activist protests did, that then resumed as peaceful demonstrations for their cause only AFTER the DHS left. This could be seen in other other BLM protest in major cities, that were escalated because of Police. > sealioned... I don't even know what that means, but I fear this is the typical reaction when someone is confronted with trying to substantiate such a bold claim and cannot really do so, that is start to try and deviate from the points made with entirely irrelevant sensationalism. I asked you to provide substantial evidence for your claim. 1: https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/portland-protests-federal-courthouse-friday-july-31/283-1a26f601-b6de-4ef8-b8b5-b6c21d67144f https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/portland-pro...

site-packages1 6y ago
Ah I see, sealioning as below: Sealioning - A subtle form of trolling involving "bad-faith" questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum. The name "sea-lioning" comes from a Wondermark comic strip. You are asking me to educate you when you could just look at current events. If you're asking me to say "Protest X on Y date led to Z legislation/budget/change" then you know that's impossible, and in fact I can perhaps only think of a handful of times in U.S. history that this could be done. One has to look at the totality of the circumstances. I can confidently say, of course, that none of these changes would have happened without social media awareness leading to protests leading to action, and the social media awareness is close enough in the chain to be considered proximate cause. But, based on your lines of questioning and inquiry in your other comments, I'm guessing nothing will be able to convince you of this. See generally, from the definition of sealioning, "involving 'bad-faith' questions."
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > You are asking me to educate you when you could just look at current events. Ok, I see we're going no where and we're at the pointing fingers for asking the 'wrong questions' phase. I'll just ask one simple question then: for being such a strong advocate of this system, which I still refuse to call activism, have you gotten involved in this process and bring about change to your community? And if so, how? What are the impacts of your involvement, and how have they been shaped and formed from your presence on Social Media? Because if you saw the video I posted (specifically 2:52) you will see a Black Mother advocating that her actual physical presence in the previously named 'Wall of Moms' protesting against Federal DHS agents and were beaten and gassed as a result [1] is what will ensure that her children or grandchildren may not have to do so in the Future. I'd argue that kind of resolve only comes about when you are amongst like minded individuals, of all walks of Life, in pursuit of a commonly held goal. A keyboard and a screen will never be a replacement for that level of change. It's not that I dispute that there are forms of 'Hactivism,' DDOS attacks against Megacorps, things like the Panama papers/Blueleaks and Politically aligned trading/shorting comes to mind, but its just that I fail to see how that has anything to do let alone be achieved with what you've described thus far. 1: https://news.yahoo.com/wall-moms-sues-trump-administration-191300114.html https://news.yahoo.com/wall-moms-sues-trump-administration-1...
  - site-packages1 6y ago
    Hi, can you show me some metrics on the mother about whom you're speaking and the claim that their "children or grandchildren may not have to do so in the [f]uture." You seem awfully confident about that without any data to back it up, despite asking me for metrics on a similar claim I made. I hope that helps hold up a mirror to illustrate the difference between the burden of proof you place on others and the (lack of) burden of proof you place on yourself for the same things. (For the record I agree with the video, just illustrating the disconnect you seem to be showing). Past that, you're definitely conflating typing on a keyboard with lacking resolve, and showing up with having resolve. I've been to plenty of protests with people milling around on the outskirts not really doing anything, and seen plenty of people bring the fire on social media. Not that it matters for this at all, but because of social media I have become aware of opportunities to go out and use my skills to observe and film protests and that film has been used as evidence of police brutality that has helped get officers doing brutalizing removed from their posts. I don't want to get more specific than that here, and again it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this.