5 ms·

How? When China doesnt open up its fire wall for US apps, why should US allow Chinese?

by rgrs 6y ago

balola 6y ago
When billions of people believe something, it will become a "fact". Right now the public opinion in China (not mine) is that India and America are hypocritical bullies and abusing the "national security" excuse, while China "never banned" any foreign web services, those "simply refused to comply with Chinese laws regarding terrorism" and their "inaccessibility" totally justified. You see, here's the logical trap, Tiktok ostensibly didn't refuse to comply with any foreign law, and it will do any "dirty work" if being asked to (unlike foreign companies in China), so by this logic, it's a model citizen and the ban is unjustified and ridiculous. This plays right into the party's hands, right into its "century of humiliation" ideology. >why should US allow Chinese? So here's the catch, the CCP sabotaged and overthrew the Chinese Nationalist Party (now Taiwan) government exactly by exploiting its liberal constitution and free speech, the lesson they learned from that epic success is that never allow these freedom, China never touted freedom and rights so it doesn't matter, while the US being the democracy beacon breaching it has everything to lose.
- ergocoder 6y ago
  > Right now the public opinion in China (not mine) is that India and America are hypocritical bullies and abusing the "national security" excuse, while China "never banned" any foreign web services, those "simply refused to comply with Chinese laws regarding terrorism" and their "inaccessibility" totally justified. This is definitely not a public opinion. Public opinion in US is splited like it always is in every single matter. I agree on the ban... or, at least, they should take a closer look regarding national security. Sending a lot of citizen personal info to the opposite super power like China and Russia does seem concerning, don't you agree?
  - rfoo 6y ago
    > This is definitely not a public opinion. OP means this is the public opinion in China, not in US. Or at least that's the public opinion that CCP wants to install. And unfortunately most of the people surrounding me agree this. And I can't argue with them without convincing them the "sometimes misguided censorship" is deliberate and people should not accept censorship in the first place (if most of them do China would have already been different). It's literally a trap.
    - ergocoder 6y ago
      Ah yes I misread it. Public opinion in China is going to be almost always anti-US. That's just regular propaganda for decades. It's not safe to have differing view in China regarding nationalism. Not sure why this is news though.
      - bllguo 6y ago
        because contrary to what you believe, many Chinese looked up to aspects of the US.
        ergocoder 6y ago
        I doubt that is true. There may be some percentage that supports US. But definitely not the majority. I'd guess it's a very small percentage.
        bllguo 6y ago
        look, things aren't binary.. No, it's not "support", obviously they largely stand by their country over the US. But it's not North Korea; they understand that life is good in the US, propaganda aside. They don't think our systems don't work _in general_, they think it wouldn't work _for them_ to directly answer your question, if you think this is a war of ideology, this move doesn't do the US any favors, regardless of how necessary or justified it is
        6y ago
  - balola 6y ago
    It's still what I said, the CCP doesn't care that much about who has data on its citizens, the amount they have could never match the party's anyway, and the measures being taken made it so that potential subversion is unlikely. It's a different story outside China and still the US's to lose. When 95% of the comments on Weibo are like what I said, I think it's pretty safe to say it is public opinion.
    - ergocoder 6y ago
      Yes, I misread it. But even without TikTok matter, the general opinion in China would be anti-US anyway, no? US is a bad guy to China regarding many matters like Hong Kong, Taiwan, islands on South China sea with Vietnam and Philippines. This is not anyway unique to TikTok's matter. Tiktok problem seems pretty mild.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  > the CCP sabotaged and overthrew the Chinese Nationalist Party (now Taiwan) government exactly by exploiting its liberal constitution and free speech This is some really bad history. The Nationalist Party was no defender of free speech. The Chinese Civil War began in April 1927, when the Nationalists rounded up and executed thousands of Communists in Shanghai and other major cities.[1] What made this massacre even more shocking was that the Nationalists were allied with the Communists up until the moment they carried out the purge. That event set off the Civil War. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre
- khuey 6y ago
  Why should US policy makers care what Chinese public opinion is?
  - balola 6y ago
    Don't have to, but unless the policy is seperate the people and the party and win over the people. https://www.state.gov/communist-china-and-the-free-worlds-future/ https://www.state.gov/communist-china-and-the-free-worlds-fu... >He was a brilliant student of China, a fierce cold warrior, and a tremendous admirer of the Chinese people, just as I think we all are. >We must also engage and empower the Chinese people – a dynamic, freedom-loving people who are completely distinct from the Chinese Communist Party. >So to somehow think that we ought to ignore the voices of the people of China seems to me the wrong approach... But it seems to me we would dishonor ourselves and the people of China if we ignored them.
    - khuey 6y ago
      To put it bluntly, MikePompeo is an idiot and that's never going to work.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      > Don't have to, but unless the policy is seperate the people and the party and win over the people. I am not sure why that would be the US's problem. I have no doubt the that CCP will be able to control the media narrative within their own country. I just don't care. That was always going to be the case.
      - balola 6y ago
        Isn't this whole new cold war all about the US trying to contain China? the failed "prosperity then freedom" China policy for the past thirty years all about? It's perfectly normal to not care, but "Policy makers" care.
        stale2002 6y ago
        > Isn't this whole new cold war all about the US trying to contain China? the failed "prosperity then freedom" China policy for the past thirty years all about? It has become clear that China is not on the road towards freedom. That theory failed. And it is because that failed, that we need to take a new approach to things. The way to get China to change, is to pressure them to change. And we can pressure them, with economic pressure, by engaging in some of the same tactics that they use against us. If they are going to defect, eventually we have to respond in kind, in order to not put ourselves at a disadvantage.

How? When China doesnt open up its fire wall for US apps, why should US allow Chinese?

by rgrs 6y ago

How? When China doesnt open up its fire wall for US apps, why should US allow Chinese?

When billions of people believe something, it will become a "fact". Right now the public opinion in China (not mine) is that India and America are hypocritical bullies and abusing the "national security" excuse, while China "never banned" any foreign web services, those "simply refused to comply with Chinese laws regarding terrorism" and their "inaccessibility" totally justified. You see, here's the logical trap, Tiktok ostensibly didn't refuse to comply with any foreign law, and it will do any "dirty work" if being asked to (unlike foreign companies in China), so by this logic, it's a model citizen and the ban is unjustified and ridiculous. This plays right into the party's hands, right into its "century of humiliation" ideology. >why should US allow Chinese? So here's the catch, the CCP sabotaged and overthrew the Chinese Nationalist Party (now Taiwan) government exactly by exploiting its liberal constitution and free speech, the lesson they learned from that epic success is that never allow these freedom, China never touted freedom and rights so it doesn't matter, while the US being the democracy beacon breaching it has everything to lose.

ergocoder 6y ago
> Right now the public opinion in China (not mine) is that India and America are hypocritical bullies and abusing the "national security" excuse, while China "never banned" any foreign web services, those "simply refused to comply with Chinese laws regarding terrorism" and their "inaccessibility" totally justified. This is definitely not a public opinion. Public opinion in US is splited like it always is in every single matter. I agree on the ban... or, at least, they should take a closer look regarding national security. Sending a lot of citizen personal info to the opposite super power like China and Russia does seem concerning, don't you agree?
- rfoo 6y ago
  > This is definitely not a public opinion. OP means this is the public opinion in China, not in US. Or at least that's the public opinion that CCP wants to install. And unfortunately most of the people surrounding me agree this. And I can't argue with them without convincing them the "sometimes misguided censorship" is deliberate and people should not accept censorship in the first place (if most of them do China would have already been different). It's literally a trap.
  - ergocoder 6y ago
    Ah yes I misread it. Public opinion in China is going to be almost always anti-US. That's just regular propaganda for decades. It's not safe to have differing view in China regarding nationalism. Not sure why this is news though.
    - bllguo 6y ago
      because contrary to what you believe, many Chinese looked up to aspects of the US.
      - ergocoder 6y ago
        I doubt that is true. There may be some percentage that supports US. But definitely not the majority. I'd guess it's a very small percentage.
        bllguo 6y ago
        look, things aren't binary.. No, it's not "support", obviously they largely stand by their country over the US. But it's not North Korea; they understand that life is good in the US, propaganda aside. They don't think our systems don't work _in general_, they think it wouldn't work _for them_ to directly answer your question, if you think this is a war of ideology, this move doesn't do the US any favors, regardless of how necessary or justified it is
        6y ago
- balola 6y ago
  It's still what I said, the CCP doesn't care that much about who has data on its citizens, the amount they have could never match the party's anyway, and the measures being taken made it so that potential subversion is unlikely. It's a different story outside China and still the US's to lose. When 95% of the comments on Weibo are like what I said, I think it's pretty safe to say it is public opinion.
  - ergocoder 6y ago
    Yes, I misread it. But even without TikTok matter, the general opinion in China would be anti-US anyway, no? US is a bad guy to China regarding many matters like Hong Kong, Taiwan, islands on South China sea with Vietnam and Philippines. This is not anyway unique to TikTok's matter. Tiktok problem seems pretty mild.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
> the CCP sabotaged and overthrew the Chinese Nationalist Party (now Taiwan) government exactly by exploiting its liberal constitution and free speech This is some really bad history. The Nationalist Party was no defender of free speech. The Chinese Civil War began in April 1927, when the Nationalists rounded up and executed thousands of Communists in Shanghai and other major cities.[1] What made this massacre even more shocking was that the Nationalists were allied with the Communists up until the moment they carried out the purge. That event set off the Civil War. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre
khuey 6y ago
Why should US policy makers care what Chinese public opinion is?
- balola 6y ago
  Don't have to, but unless the policy is seperate the people and the party and win over the people. https://www.state.gov/communist-china-and-the-free-worlds-future/ https://www.state.gov/communist-china-and-the-free-worlds-fu... >He was a brilliant student of China, a fierce cold warrior, and a tremendous admirer of the Chinese people, just as I think we all are. >We must also engage and empower the Chinese people – a dynamic, freedom-loving people who are completely distinct from the Chinese Communist Party. >So to somehow think that we ought to ignore the voices of the people of China seems to me the wrong approach... But it seems to me we would dishonor ourselves and the people of China if we ignored them.
  - khuey 6y ago
    To put it bluntly, MikePompeo is an idiot and that's never going to work.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > Don't have to, but unless the policy is seperate the people and the party and win over the people. I am not sure why that would be the US's problem. I have no doubt the that CCP will be able to control the media narrative within their own country. I just don't care. That was always going to be the case.
    - balola 6y ago
      Isn't this whole new cold war all about the US trying to contain China? the failed "prosperity then freedom" China policy for the past thirty years all about? It's perfectly normal to not care, but "Policy makers" care.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        > Isn't this whole new cold war all about the US trying to contain China? the failed "prosperity then freedom" China policy for the past thirty years all about? It has become clear that China is not on the road towards freedom. That theory failed. And it is because that failed, that we need to take a new approach to things. The way to get China to change, is to pressure them to change. And we can pressure them, with economic pressure, by engaging in some of the same tactics that they use against us. If they are going to defect, eventually we have to respond in kind, in order to not put ourselves at a disadvantage.