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The issue here is that it's a president arbitrarily destroying a company. If the Congress (the actual body meant to crate laws) decides to create a reasoned, c

by kjksf 6y ago

The issue here is that it's a president arbitrarily destroying a company. If the Congress (the actual body meant to crate laws) decides to create a reasoned, comprehensive law to level the playing field with Chinese companies, then they should do it. What shouldn't happen is this kind of impulsive decision making that arguably abuses the emergency powers of the presidency to block an app that allows people to film themselves and post those recordings. If you claim that this app is a national security threat then any app is.

pupdogg 6y ago
I disagree. The definition of "arbitrarily" states: "on the basis of random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system". I think the President's decision is based on reason and is not a random choice or a personal whim as much as it might seem to some. Now, why is that? Well, it became public yesterday that Microsoft was in talks with TikTok to acquire them. Though every business decision by big players like Microsoft may seem like a calculated risk, no one can predict the future. In this scenario, that risk is clearly foreign state infiltration. Keep in mind, we're in 2020 and morse code is no longer a thing. Due to the uncertain nature of what this deal might bright about, the President reasoned that it was appropriate from him to take this executive action to protect national security interests. I do believe that if Microsoft can sell the government on mitigating or completely removing any risk exposure that this deal might bring, that the ban will be lifted. Again, this is just my opinion.
- miracle2k 6y ago
  The meaning of "arbitrary" here is that the decision is based on the whims of the White House, rather than on well-established rules that apply to everyone - regardless of how well-reasoned the authors of such a ban might think themselves.
- atomi 6y ago
  I think the above poster probably means to say "unilaterally."
- whoevercares 6y ago
  From a native Chinese’s perspective, this is scary: what’s the next thing he will ban? - Wechat: this make a virtual “family separation” - A purge of any app related to China (TuSimple, Zoom etc) - Suspend F1 and H1B visa for “suspected” Chinese and make special scrutiny during immigration interviews for all Chinese applicants - witch hunt more Let me tell you what’s this: Chinese Exclusion Act II
  - diebeforei485 6y ago
    What's wrong with banning WeChat? China bans WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, and a whole other bunch of apps. Zoom should be scrutinized very heavily and potentially banned as well. Keep in mind China bans Skype.
    - whoevercares 6y ago
      Zoom’s founder is of Chinese origin but it entirely US based from the beginning.
      - diebeforei485 6y ago
        No, their engineers are mostly in China. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    Isn’t this what happens to Western companies and products in China?
- DanBC 6y ago
  > The definition of "arbitrarily" states: "on the basis of random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system". Here's what OED says. (b) looks interesting, especially with the 1st amendment complications. (Unless I'm missing something and arbitrarily is defined in US constitutional documents??) ---begin--- arbitrarily, adv. (ˈɑːbɪtrərɪlɪ)[f. arbitrary + -ly 2.] arbitrarily, adv. In an arbitrary manner, at will; arbitrarily, adv. a. merely at will, without sufficient reason, capriciously; arbitrarily, adv. b. unconstitutionally, despotically. a1626: Davies Quest. Impositions 131 “This power of laying on arbitrarily new impositions.” 1656: Hobbes Six Less. Wks. 1845 VII. 394 “The point F is not to be taken arbitrarily.” 1754: Edwards Freed. Will iv. 2 (ed. 4) 279 “The meaning that they arbitrarily affix to a word.” 1769: Junius Lett. xxxv, “Their rights have been arbitrarily invaded by the present House of Commons.” 1849: Macaulay Hist. Eng. II. 126 “The Bishop of Dunkeld..was arbitrarily ejected from his see.” 1882: A. Macfarlane Consanguin. 1 “The arbitrarily chosen names of substances.”
ethanbond 6y ago
> If you claim that this app is a national security threat then any app is. How so? Not every app is 1. Owned and controlled by an adversarial state, 2. In the hands of every American youth, and 3. Providing opaquely generated/sorted content. So explain how every app is an equivalent security threat.
- miracle2k 6y ago
  The US used to claim a higher moral when others blocked, filtered, or enacted bans by executive fiat. It did so with some justification. Banning an app because you are worried about external cultural influence on your youth ends any such claim.
  - ethanbond 6y ago
    This is irrelevant to the question I asked.
- Slartie 6y ago
  Please explain why TikTok is "owned and controlled" by the Chinese government. TikTok is just as much "owned and controlled" by an adversarial state as any app by US corporations is "owned and controlled" by the US government due to national security letters and the CLOUD Act.
  - ethanbond 6y ago
    No, it’s really not. Note that there is currently a very public tiff between American media and the American state. This would be impossible in China. That is the difference, regardless of whether you can pull pieces of law from either side that would indicate the contrary. State power is a complex thing that is not entirely encoded in legal code. Some reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/world/asia/china-media-policy-xi-jinping.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/world/asia/china-media-po... https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-china-cracked-down-on-the-social-media-giant-bytedance https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-china-crack... “Jan 25 - Xi Jinping, general secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee, on Friday stressed efforts to boost integrated media development and amplify mainstream tone in public communication so as to consolidate the common theoretical foundation for all Party members and all the people to unite and work hard.” http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/25/c_137774923.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/25/c_137774923.htm

by kjksf 6y ago

pupdogg 6y ago

I disagree. The definition of "arbitrarily" states: "on the basis of random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system". I think the President's decision is based on reason and is not a random choice or a personal whim as much as it might seem to some. Now, why is that? Well, it became public yesterday that Microsoft was in talks with TikTok to acquire them. Though every business decision by big players like Microsoft may seem like a calculated risk, no one can predict the future. In this scenario, that risk is clearly foreign state infiltration. Keep in mind, we're in 2020 and morse code is no longer a thing. Due to the uncertain nature of what this deal might bright about, the President reasoned that it was appropriate from him to take this executive action to protect national security interests. I do believe that if Microsoft can sell the government on mitigating or completely removing any risk exposure that this deal might bring, that the ban will be lifted. Again, this is just my opinion.

miracle2k 6y ago
The meaning of "arbitrary" here is that the decision is based on the whims of the White House, rather than on well-established rules that apply to everyone - regardless of how well-reasoned the authors of such a ban might think themselves.
atomi 6y ago
I think the above poster probably means to say "unilaterally."
whoevercares 6y ago
From a native Chinese’s perspective, this is scary: what’s the next thing he will ban? - Wechat: this make a virtual “family separation” - A purge of any app related to China (TuSimple, Zoom etc) - Suspend F1 and H1B visa for “suspected” Chinese and make special scrutiny during immigration interviews for all Chinese applicants - witch hunt more Let me tell you what’s this: Chinese Exclusion Act II
- diebeforei485 6y ago
  What's wrong with banning WeChat? China bans WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, and a whole other bunch of apps. Zoom should be scrutinized very heavily and potentially banned as well. Keep in mind China bans Skype.
  - whoevercares 6y ago
    Zoom’s founder is of Chinese origin but it entirely US based from the beginning.
    - diebeforei485 6y ago
      No, their engineers are mostly in China. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...
- chaostheory 6y ago
  Isn’t this what happens to Western companies and products in China?
DanBC 6y ago
> The definition of "arbitrarily" states: "on the basis of random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system". Here's what OED says. (b) looks interesting, especially with the 1st amendment complications. (Unless I'm missing something and arbitrarily is defined in US constitutional documents??) ---begin--- arbitrarily, adv. (ˈɑːbɪtrərɪlɪ)[f. arbitrary + -ly 2.] arbitrarily, adv. In an arbitrary manner, at will; arbitrarily, adv. a. merely at will, without sufficient reason, capriciously; arbitrarily, adv. b. unconstitutionally, despotically. a1626: Davies Quest. Impositions 131 “This power of laying on arbitrarily new impositions.” 1656: Hobbes Six Less. Wks. 1845 VII. 394 “The point F is not to be taken arbitrarily.” 1754: Edwards Freed. Will iv. 2 (ed. 4) 279 “The meaning that they arbitrarily affix to a word.” 1769: Junius Lett. xxxv, “Their rights have been arbitrarily invaded by the present House of Commons.” 1849: Macaulay Hist. Eng. II. 126 “The Bishop of Dunkeld..was arbitrarily ejected from his see.” 1882: A. Macfarlane Consanguin. 1 “The arbitrarily chosen names of substances.”

ethanbond 6y ago

> If you claim that this app is a national security threat then any app is. How so? Not every app is 1. Owned and controlled by an adversarial state, 2. In the hands of every American youth, and 3. Providing opaquely generated/sorted content. So explain how every app is an equivalent security threat.

miracle2k 6y ago
The US used to claim a higher moral when others blocked, filtered, or enacted bans by executive fiat. It did so with some justification. Banning an app because you are worried about external cultural influence on your youth ends any such claim.
- ethanbond 6y ago
  This is irrelevant to the question I asked.
Slartie 6y ago
Please explain why TikTok is "owned and controlled" by the Chinese government. TikTok is just as much "owned and controlled" by an adversarial state as any app by US corporations is "owned and controlled" by the US government due to national security letters and the CLOUD Act.
- ethanbond 6y ago
  No, it’s really not. Note that there is currently a very public tiff between American media and the American state. This would be impossible in China. That is the difference, regardless of whether you can pull pieces of law from either side that would indicate the contrary. State power is a complex thing that is not entirely encoded in legal code. Some reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/world/asia/china-media-policy-xi-jinping.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/world/asia/china-media-po... https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-china-cracked-down-on-the-social-media-giant-bytedance https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-china-crack... “Jan 25 - Xi Jinping, general secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee, on Friday stressed efforts to boost integrated media development and amplify mainstream tone in public communication so as to consolidate the common theoretical foundation for all Party members and all the people to unite and work hard.” http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/25/c_137774923.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/25/c_137774923.htm