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> The big question mark hanging over it is ability to run native Linux. I wouldn't not be surprised if Apple took every measure possible to make it impossible

by znpy 6y ago

> The big question mark hanging over it is ability to run native Linux. I wouldn't not be surprised if Apple took every measure possible to make it impossible to run Linux on their new machines.

_ph_ 6y ago
It is not clear to me, why they would care much about it. The selling point of Macs is to a large amount macOS. On the other side, at least for now, it is announced that Apple Silicon hardware only boots into signed operation systems, which currently is only macOS. I would assume, that means there is little chance to run Linux natively on Apple Silicon. On the other side, virtualisation technology is part of macOS, so there should be good support to run Linux inside a virtualized environment. They even showcased Linux during the keynote.
- znpy 6y ago
  we'll see. for the moment, most people i know complain about poor performances of linux vms in mac os, particularly when running docker (that gets pretty i/o intensive when dealing with images). > at least for now, it is announced that Apple Silicon hardware only boots into signed operation systems this alone already rules out gnu/linux i guess?
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Yes, unless Apple signs some boot loader for Linux, that would rule out Linux booting.
    - my123 6y ago
      Secure Boot can be disabled on Arm macs...
      - znpy 6y ago
        Do you think that or do you know that? The hardware is unreleased yet, so how do you know?
        my123 6y ago
        Apple explicitly said it during WWDC sessions. (this one: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686)
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    It really depends. After all, there are UEFI x86 systems using secure boot to boot Linux, but there was also Microsoft's vision of ARM (spec outright prohibits user managed keys, and nobody's shipping with anything but Microsoft keys).
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      > but there was also Microsoft's vision of ARM (spec outright prohibits user managed keys, and nobody's shipping with anything but Microsoft keys). Indeed. "Microsoft <3 Linux" they say. Right...
- wayneftw 6y ago
  The only selling point for many developers is that you need a Mac to compile a program for iOS. Apple would have never gotten any of my money if it weren’t for that.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    I am a developer owning a Mac and having never written an iOS application in my life. So yes, that you have to have a Mac to do iOS development did add customers to the Mac platform, but there are many more reasons to own a Mac. For the general consumer it is an attractive platform too, as it is still very easy to use and maintenance is minimal.
    - vaxman 6y ago
      I don’t get the “So yes” part. If you develop for non-Apple platforms on a Mac, it is because of X, Y and Z not because you have “never written an iOS application.” As far as a “general consumer,” they had all be using iPad, Dex or Chromebook by now.
      - _ph_ 6y ago
        The "so yes" refers to the fact, that some of the Macs are bought just for iOS development, but not the majority. I see a lot of people using Macs just as a general computer and a lot of those Macs are laptops of course. I have not even seen a Chromebook used yet and also don't know anyone using an iPad for typical computer work.
IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
Yes, they are going to spent a lot of money to prevent their customers from installing Linux. All two of them. FWIW they haven't even invested the tiniest amount of effort into stopping people from installing MacOS on "Hackintoshs". And that practice is probably more widespread than Linux-on-Macbook, and has a more obvious theory of revenue impact. (It wouldn't be possible to completely make it impossible without "trusted computing" hardware, or, coincidentally, switching hardware platforms to something not available on the generic market. But they certainly could think of a new trick to make life miserable for these users with any point update, and yet I found MacOS offered better support for my random hardware than Linux, without even trying.)
Someone 6y ago
The end effect may be (almost) the same, but I see them make no effort to make it possible to run Linux on their new machines, not take “every measure possible to make it impossible to run Linux on their new machines”.
floatboth 6y ago
They don't need to spend any intentional effort on this. There's already the massive obstacle for a good desktop experience: no open GPU driver for Apple GPUs. Even before that, there's the question of how they enumerate devices on the platform, how standard or custom the peripherals are…
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Thevy've already said there will be no Bootcamp, my guess is running Linux on Apple Silicon is as likely as running Linux on an iPad.
- vaxman 6y ago
  Did they not already commit to running VMs on Big Sur on their ARM chips? ARM-based Linux exists and will run full speed. Because they are kicking kext’s to the curb and stepping up with their own virtualized hardware drivers, we may not have to keep waiting decades for VMware or others to pull their head out with respect to 3D support. The best GUI apps already run on iPad and all of them run on ARM Macs so I doubt new Apple is thinking like they need to hobble the VMs to prevent Linux GUIs from taking off. But booting these Macs into anything but BigSur is not happening as accessing the hardware without using Apple’s drivers could cause product returns.

by znpy 6y ago

> The big question mark hanging over it is ability to run native Linux. I wouldn't not be surprised if Apple took every measure possible to make it impossible to run Linux on their new machines.

_ph_ 6y ago

It is not clear to me, why they would care much about it. The selling point of Macs is to a large amount macOS. On the other side, at least for now, it is announced that Apple Silicon hardware only boots into signed operation systems, which currently is only macOS. I would assume, that means there is little chance to run Linux natively on Apple Silicon. On the other side, virtualisation technology is part of macOS, so there should be good support to run Linux inside a virtualized environment. They even showcased Linux during the keynote.

znpy 6y ago
we'll see. for the moment, most people i know complain about poor performances of linux vms in mac os, particularly when running docker (that gets pretty i/o intensive when dealing with images). > at least for now, it is announced that Apple Silicon hardware only boots into signed operation systems this alone already rules out gnu/linux i guess?
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Yes, unless Apple signs some boot loader for Linux, that would rule out Linux booting.
  - my123 6y ago
    Secure Boot can be disabled on Arm macs...
    - znpy 6y ago
      Do you think that or do you know that? The hardware is unreleased yet, so how do you know?
      - my123 6y ago
        Apple explicitly said it during WWDC sessions. (this one: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686)
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  It really depends. After all, there are UEFI x86 systems using secure boot to boot Linux, but there was also Microsoft's vision of ARM (spec outright prohibits user managed keys, and nobody's shipping with anything but Microsoft keys).
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    > but there was also Microsoft's vision of ARM (spec outright prohibits user managed keys, and nobody's shipping with anything but Microsoft keys). Indeed. "Microsoft <3 Linux" they say. Right...
wayneftw 6y ago
The only selling point for many developers is that you need a Mac to compile a program for iOS. Apple would have never gotten any of my money if it weren’t for that.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  I am a developer owning a Mac and having never written an iOS application in my life. So yes, that you have to have a Mac to do iOS development did add customers to the Mac platform, but there are many more reasons to own a Mac. For the general consumer it is an attractive platform too, as it is still very easy to use and maintenance is minimal.
  - vaxman 6y ago
    I don’t get the “So yes” part. If you develop for non-Apple platforms on a Mac, it is because of X, Y and Z not because you have “never written an iOS application.” As far as a “general consumer,” they had all be using iPad, Dex or Chromebook by now.
    - _ph_ 6y ago
      The "so yes" refers to the fact, that some of the Macs are bought just for iOS development, but not the majority. I see a lot of people using Macs just as a general computer and a lot of those Macs are laptops of course. I have not even seen a Chromebook used yet and also don't know anyone using an iPad for typical computer work.

IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago

Yes, they are going to spent a lot of money to prevent their customers from installing Linux. All two of them. FWIW they haven't even invested the tiniest amount of effort into stopping people from installing MacOS on "Hackintoshs". And that practice is probably more widespread than Linux-on-Macbook, and has a more obvious theory of revenue impact. (It wouldn't be possible to completely make it impossible without "trusted computing" hardware, or, coincidentally, switching hardware platforms to something not available on the generic market. But they certainly could think of a new trick to make life miserable for these users with any point update, and yet I found MacOS offered better support for my random hardware than Linux, without even trying.)

Someone 6y ago

The end effect may be (almost) the same, but I see them make no effort to make it possible to run Linux on their new machines, not take “every measure possible to make it impossible to run Linux on their new machines”.

floatboth 6y ago

They don't need to spend any intentional effort on this. There's already the massive obstacle for a good desktop experience: no open GPU driver for Apple GPUs. Even before that, there's the question of how they enumerate devices on the platform, how standard or custom the peripherals are…

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

Thevy've already said there will be no Bootcamp, my guess is running Linux on Apple Silicon is as likely as running Linux on an iPad.

vaxman 6y ago
Did they not already commit to running VMs on Big Sur on their ARM chips? ARM-based Linux exists and will run full speed. Because they are kicking kext’s to the curb and stepping up with their own virtualized hardware drivers, we may not have to keep waiting decades for VMware or others to pull their head out with respect to 3D support. The best GUI apps already run on iPad and all of them run on ARM Macs so I doubt new Apple is thinking like they need to hobble the VMs to prevent Linux GUIs from taking off. But booting these Macs into anything but BigSur is not happening as accessing the hardware without using Apple’s drivers could cause product returns.