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The assumption here is that companies will forego interviewing the best candidates because they copy-pasted their cover letters. I just don't buy that. "This g

The assumption here is that companies will forego interviewing the best candidates because they copy-pasted their cover letters. I just don't buy that. "This guy seems really good, but he didn't rewrite his introduction for us. What do you think? Remove his interview?" Like hell any company is going to do that.

mszcz 6y ago
Like hell I’d like to work for a company that would do that.
coffeeiscold 6y ago
I guess the question is, how does this person "seem really good"? To determine this, they have to have a well written resume that highlights relevant experience. Most resumes seem to be "company xyz - frobulated the frobulation system" Unless of course your company is interested in frobulation also. The contrary: "this person has a bunch of experience on their resume that is possibly beneficial, but their cover letter doesn't give any indication they have thought about the role they are applying for. This other applicant shows insight into the requirements of the role via their cover letter, and has highlighted key areas of their experience, giving greater detail about how it will be useful in this role." Who are you going to pick to interview? Perhaps this is more important for niche industries, and smaller teams. In a large team you can get good coverage of skills through sheer number of people. In a small team its the alignment of skills is more important. When hiring (small, niche org) I carefully read all the cover letters.
- bananaface 6y ago
  I understand this hypothetical, my point is: I don't think it's actually relevant. It's not going to be the tipping point. I should make my contention clearer: I think that companies are extremely unlikely to forego interviewing a candidate that otherwise looks good because they had no cover letter. This doesn't just apply to the best candidates - if any candidate looks hireable in relation to the rest of the applicant pool, they will put them through to the next stage of the process. Once you've actually sat down and spoken to someone, your written introduction is irrelevant. I do think it probably matters more for small companies, but they're also going to get way less applications to begin with so it's like... You're really going to just not interview good candidates? Really?
  - zaphoyd 6y ago
    One point of data: My large organization’s HR department lists a cover letter as a requirement and will forbid us from moving ahead with even a first round interview if the application is incomplete. So yes, really, we can’t interview candidates who demonstrate right at the front door that they can’t/won’t/haven’t read the application requirements.
    - bananaface 6y ago
      I misspoke - I meant to say a generic cover letter. No cover letter full stop is stupid.
      - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
        ok but in the post of mine your replied to I specified I used a cover letter template - i.e a generic cover letter.
        bananaface 6y ago
        Right, but you rewrote it. I'm saying totally copy-pasted content is still unlikely to move you from "good candidate" to "no interview".
  - coffeeiscold 6y ago
    It seems you might have missed my point. "I think that companies are extremely unlikely to forego interviewing a candidate that otherwise looks good because they had no cover letter." My point is that the cover letter is one of the tools the applicant can use to highlight themselves as a good candidate. It could easily be the tipping point for getting an interview. It can give you some feeling for their communication skills, their understanding of the role / company / product. Though I concede most cover letters are not very well written, mostly generic. In the absence of a good cover letter, their resume alone must stand out. Of course it could be a tricky situation: choosing between a candidate with a great cover letter and less obviously great resume vs a generic cover letter and more relevant experience listed on their resume. Personally I would lean towards the better cover letter. They have given a clearer indication enthusiasm and interest in the job. A well written cover letter will explain how their experience is relevant, despite not superficially appearing so. This allows them to show insight into the role.
paulcole 6y ago
Most people aren’t the best candidate. And most jobs don’t require the best candidate. I’ve got a lot of resumes and cover letters to look through and at the end of the day, a lot of people are going to be a pretty good fit. I’m going to save myself a lot of time by discarding anyone who didn’t bother to read the job post and follow directions.
- bananaface 6y ago
  Ok, but I have a lot of jobs to apply for, and I'm going to save a lot of time by not hand-crafting each application. So the relevant question is: does the reduction in hit rate outweigh the increase in application rate? I argue: probably not. Depends if you're exhausting all postings. The whole thing seems screwy to me. You only hire people who put a lot of effort into contacting you? So you don't recruit? A good candidate is a good candidate whether or not they spent half an hour on a cold pitch. The problem is, you're putting up job ads (that might well be fake, candidates don't know) and expecting candidates to put in a lot of effort. You're not respecting the nature of the situation - both sides have a very low hit rate, so it's irrational for either side to put much effort into individual transactions (if they're in demand). Filters that filter out low-effort applications filter for one thing: people who have an incentive to put in effort. That doesn't just cut out people that are spamming.
  - paulcole 6y ago
    > Ok, but I have a lot of jobs to apply for, and I'm going to save a lot of time by not hand-crafting each application OK, so do that. You’re applying to a lot of jobs and you don’t care too much about any one of them in particular, so why should I care about your application in particular? I’ll save a lot of time by not closely reviewing your application. Again, my point is that most people aren’t in demand and most jobs aren’t that demanding. Someone is going to read the job post in full and put in a modicum of effort and will be a decent fit. I’ll look for that person vs. the person who put in zero effort and will be a decent fit.
    - bananaface 6y ago

mszcz 6y ago

Like hell I’d like to work for a company that would do that.

coffeeiscold 6y ago

I guess the question is, how does this person "seem really good"? To determine this, they have to have a well written resume that highlights relevant experience. Most resumes seem to be "company xyz - frobulated the frobulation system" Unless of course your company is interested in frobulation also. The contrary: "this person has a bunch of experience on their resume that is possibly beneficial, but their cover letter doesn't give any indication they have thought about the role they are applying for. This other applicant shows insight into the requirements of the role via their cover letter, and has highlighted key areas of their experience, giving greater detail about how it will be useful in this role." Who are you going to pick to interview? Perhaps this is more important for niche industries, and smaller teams. In a large team you can get good coverage of skills through sheer number of people. In a small team its the alignment of skills is more important. When hiring (small, niche org) I carefully read all the cover letters.

bananaface 6y ago
I understand this hypothetical, my point is: I don't think it's actually relevant. It's not going to be the tipping point. I should make my contention clearer: I think that companies are extremely unlikely to forego interviewing a candidate that otherwise looks good because they had no cover letter. This doesn't just apply to the best candidates - if any candidate looks hireable in relation to the rest of the applicant pool, they will put them through to the next stage of the process. Once you've actually sat down and spoken to someone, your written introduction is irrelevant. I do think it probably matters more for small companies, but they're also going to get way less applications to begin with so it's like... You're really going to just not interview good candidates? Really?
- zaphoyd 6y ago
  One point of data: My large organization’s HR department lists a cover letter as a requirement and will forbid us from moving ahead with even a first round interview if the application is incomplete. So yes, really, we can’t interview candidates who demonstrate right at the front door that they can’t/won’t/haven’t read the application requirements.
  - bananaface 6y ago
    I misspoke - I meant to say a generic cover letter. No cover letter full stop is stupid.
    - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
      ok but in the post of mine your replied to I specified I used a cover letter template - i.e a generic cover letter.
      - bananaface 6y ago
        Right, but you rewrote it. I'm saying totally copy-pasted content is still unlikely to move you from "good candidate" to "no interview".
- coffeeiscold 6y ago
  It seems you might have missed my point. "I think that companies are extremely unlikely to forego interviewing a candidate that otherwise looks good because they had no cover letter." My point is that the cover letter is one of the tools the applicant can use to highlight themselves as a good candidate. It could easily be the tipping point for getting an interview. It can give you some feeling for their communication skills, their understanding of the role / company / product. Though I concede most cover letters are not very well written, mostly generic. In the absence of a good cover letter, their resume alone must stand out. Of course it could be a tricky situation: choosing between a candidate with a great cover letter and less obviously great resume vs a generic cover letter and more relevant experience listed on their resume. Personally I would lean towards the better cover letter. They have given a clearer indication enthusiasm and interest in the job. A well written cover letter will explain how their experience is relevant, despite not superficially appearing so. This allows them to show insight into the role.

paulcole 6y ago

Most people aren’t the best candidate. And most jobs don’t require the best candidate. I’ve got a lot of resumes and cover letters to look through and at the end of the day, a lot of people are going to be a pretty good fit. I’m going to save myself a lot of time by discarding anyone who didn’t bother to read the job post and follow directions.

bananaface 6y ago
Ok, but I have a lot of jobs to apply for, and I'm going to save a lot of time by not hand-crafting each application. So the relevant question is: does the reduction in hit rate outweigh the increase in application rate? I argue: probably not. Depends if you're exhausting all postings. The whole thing seems screwy to me. You only hire people who put a lot of effort into contacting you? So you don't recruit? A good candidate is a good candidate whether or not they spent half an hour on a cold pitch. The problem is, you're putting up job ads (that might well be fake, candidates don't know) and expecting candidates to put in a lot of effort. You're not respecting the nature of the situation - both sides have a very low hit rate, so it's irrational for either side to put much effort into individual transactions (if they're in demand). Filters that filter out low-effort applications filter for one thing: people who have an incentive to put in effort. That doesn't just cut out people that are spamming.
- paulcole 6y ago
  > Ok, but I have a lot of jobs to apply for, and I'm going to save a lot of time by not hand-crafting each application OK, so do that. You’re applying to a lot of jobs and you don’t care too much about any one of them in particular, so why should I care about your application in particular? I’ll save a lot of time by not closely reviewing your application. Again, my point is that most people aren’t in demand and most jobs aren’t that demanding. Someone is going to read the job post in full and put in a modicum of effort and will be a decent fit. I’ll look for that person vs. the person who put in zero effort and will be a decent fit.
  - bananaface 6y ago