4 ms·

I find a lot of the skepticism and disillusionment rather unwarranted and whiny. I went to a well regarded public college for Undergrad. I am now at one of the

I find a lot of the skepticism and disillusionment rather unwarranted and whiny. I went to a well regarded public college for Undergrad. I am now at one of the most well regarded private colleges in the country. I can absolutely see the difference in the quality of instruction and opportunities afforded to Undergrads here compared to my public college. A lot of this seems to be much ado about nothing. To add some context, I'm an immigrant to the US. I came here for opportunity. A lot of people are uncomfortable with what that means. It isn't some Eddie Murphy "Welcome to America" kumbaya, happy-go-lucky thing. I came here with my family to out work and out compete everyone for the shot at a better life. If you look at any STEM class, as opposed to any non-STEM class, the makeup of people in those classes in both Undergrad, and especially Graduate levels, is much closer to being representative of people who look like me rather than the general public/college demographics. In immigrant populations there is no disillusionment with the elite institutions in America, and more broadly, the American Dream.

emptyparadise 6y ago
You're fighting tooth and nail for that shot at a better life and that's admirable. But I think the author has different aspirations. Those ideas of "changing the world" are perhaps born out of the privilege of at the very least getting to call a first world country their home, but I think they're still worth discussing - though any changes proposed must not close doors to people like you.
- IMAYousaf 6y ago
  With all due respect, while I know that you didn't mean to come across as such, some may find those comments a bit patronizing. My "fighting tooth and nail" isn't complete when I went from a 3rd World existence to a 1st World existence. I'm very much here to win "in the big leagues". Without trying to sound too much like a Bond villain, I too am seeking to change the world in ways that I think are meaningful, without giving a damn what others think. I too have aspirations of being at the top of the world and molding it into the way that I think that it should be. I find the ideas of people who approach the world with this discontentment, which seems sophomoric to me instead of insightful, to be rather milquetoast. The elite are disillusioned because they're comfy. They convince themselves that they need to derive more meaning and get caught up in the performative nature of their life which is directly a result of their privilege. Most people who actually do change the world, at least in a capitalistic manner, bring an edge and killer instinct, often refusing to accept that they're not the best, or even if they aren't that they are required to act differently in accordance. This whole story came across to me as someone who folded at the first sign of any self-inflected psychological query. Much of the rest of the world would kill to get to Harvard, whether for the pure reasons of seeking knowledge at the world's most renowned college, or to play the game of life to get ahead. I want to also bring up one more observation that addresses the psychological aspect that the author addressed when he said elite colleges close doors psychologically, by describing manual work as beneath them. I've gotten to know some people who come from the world of the elites, and I've found it farcical and disturbing how often people do performative bullshit like send their kids to work construction jobs in the summers before college to learn about things like "the meaning of hard work". If I was to send my hypothetical children to work in construction, it'd be to learn construction with the view of deriving real world capitalistic value from it, not as some performative mind-body exercise. John Adams, one of the Founding Fathers, said: "I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain." This quote illustrates to me perfectly why wealth is typically destroyed in 3 generations, or at least why that stereotype exists. The rigor and knowledge disappears as the elites become more concerned with the optics of what they are doing, instead of the actual work at hand. It's precisely why I brought up my lens of being an immigrant. My future kids will probably never have the hunger and edge with which I work, but I hope to distill in them rigor, and hope that they can bring that intensity that I still lack today.
  - emptyparadise 6y ago
    You're right and I apologize for my comment.
    - IMAYousaf 6y ago
      Hey! No need to apologize! Just wanted to offer you a different perspective.
UweSchmidt 6y ago
The experiences of the author are not "unwarranted", they are as valid as yours, and their intention to change the world is a noble one and doesn't discredit your path. The author mentiones how the environment at Harvard may tend to limit options in the students' lifes and noted how the "Auckland kids" back home started companies (among other things), i.e. one of the best ways to achieve the classic "American Dream", particularly for immigrants. Similar scepticism is expressed in many other articles and blog posts these days, questioning the value of traditional and often expensive university education.
- unabst 6y ago
  But wouldn't you think an "Auckland kid" would fair better as a "Harvard kid" given the same ambitions with better opportunities and greater access? Ivy League affiliates enjoy the privileges of being branded Ivy League all their lives. And the schools are pretty great to boot. To me the original article was asking the following questions: Did I have to come to Harvard to do what I want? Why don't more people make use of their Ivy League privileges? Why isn't Harvard doing more good for society? Which does sound a bit whiny, I would think, especially to an Auckland Kid. The takeaway for me, was that there should be more Auckland Kids at Harvard, and that OP here is more of an Auckland Kid. He's saying there is little to complain about if this is what you came for, and that it should have been. On the other hand, the author of the article presents valid criticism about Harvard Kids and Harvard, but appears also to be closer to the Harvard Kid than the Auckland Kids she seems to admire. Sometimes it takes one to know the others and where you are at. But at least there are some Auckland Kids in the Ivy Leagues. And I would bet you there are some Harvard Kids in Auckland too that never made it to Harvard.
  - senkora 6y ago
    I think Harvard kid vs Auckland kid is a false dichotomy. The article makes the argument that there is no difference before college. Harvard takes in kids who would have been Auckland kids and changes them into something else, and that's a problem. Anecdotally, I've seen similar at the top private school that I went to. I had to give up on idealistic things I did in high school, and would have otherwise continued doing in college, because of the workload I experienced at school.
doonesbury 6y ago
Gotta like a guy who's present, working, driven, and competent. That'll deal with the first 65% of the issues (security eg. housing, food, decent education for kids etc). But that last 35% is very different kind of tough and it does not succumb to "work harder bark louder." For an interesting example in film consider [0] with HG Wells and P. Newman. Ultimately the son is accepted by the father, but at what cost? Balance is ... the toughest master of all. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amazon.com/LONG-HOT-SUMMER-TWILIGHT-TIME/dp/B0759WMJ53&ved=2ahUKEwjB9_mItPrqAhXegXIEHXnJAIIQFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0ZpXkHO5liBTkok1SWRD_A&cshid=1596298721794 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

emptyparadise 6y ago

You're fighting tooth and nail for that shot at a better life and that's admirable. But I think the author has different aspirations. Those ideas of "changing the world" are perhaps born out of the privilege of at the very least getting to call a first world country their home, but I think they're still worth discussing - though any changes proposed must not close doors to people like you.

IMAYousaf 6y ago
With all due respect, while I know that you didn't mean to come across as such, some may find those comments a bit patronizing. My "fighting tooth and nail" isn't complete when I went from a 3rd World existence to a 1st World existence. I'm very much here to win "in the big leagues". Without trying to sound too much like a Bond villain, I too am seeking to change the world in ways that I think are meaningful, without giving a damn what others think. I too have aspirations of being at the top of the world and molding it into the way that I think that it should be. I find the ideas of people who approach the world with this discontentment, which seems sophomoric to me instead of insightful, to be rather milquetoast. The elite are disillusioned because they're comfy. They convince themselves that they need to derive more meaning and get caught up in the performative nature of their life which is directly a result of their privilege. Most people who actually do change the world, at least in a capitalistic manner, bring an edge and killer instinct, often refusing to accept that they're not the best, or even if they aren't that they are required to act differently in accordance. This whole story came across to me as someone who folded at the first sign of any self-inflected psychological query. Much of the rest of the world would kill to get to Harvard, whether for the pure reasons of seeking knowledge at the world's most renowned college, or to play the game of life to get ahead. I want to also bring up one more observation that addresses the psychological aspect that the author addressed when he said elite colleges close doors psychologically, by describing manual work as beneath them. I've gotten to know some people who come from the world of the elites, and I've found it farcical and disturbing how often people do performative bullshit like send their kids to work construction jobs in the summers before college to learn about things like "the meaning of hard work". If I was to send my hypothetical children to work in construction, it'd be to learn construction with the view of deriving real world capitalistic value from it, not as some performative mind-body exercise. John Adams, one of the Founding Fathers, said: "I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain." This quote illustrates to me perfectly why wealth is typically destroyed in 3 generations, or at least why that stereotype exists. The rigor and knowledge disappears as the elites become more concerned with the optics of what they are doing, instead of the actual work at hand. It's precisely why I brought up my lens of being an immigrant. My future kids will probably never have the hunger and edge with which I work, but I hope to distill in them rigor, and hope that they can bring that intensity that I still lack today.
- emptyparadise 6y ago
  You're right and I apologize for my comment.
  - IMAYousaf 6y ago
    Hey! No need to apologize! Just wanted to offer you a different perspective.

UweSchmidt 6y ago

The experiences of the author are not "unwarranted", they are as valid as yours, and their intention to change the world is a noble one and doesn't discredit your path. The author mentiones how the environment at Harvard may tend to limit options in the students' lifes and noted how the "Auckland kids" back home started companies (among other things), i.e. one of the best ways to achieve the classic "American Dream", particularly for immigrants. Similar scepticism is expressed in many other articles and blog posts these days, questioning the value of traditional and often expensive university education.

unabst 6y ago
But wouldn't you think an "Auckland kid" would fair better as a "Harvard kid" given the same ambitions with better opportunities and greater access? Ivy League affiliates enjoy the privileges of being branded Ivy League all their lives. And the schools are pretty great to boot. To me the original article was asking the following questions: Did I have to come to Harvard to do what I want? Why don't more people make use of their Ivy League privileges? Why isn't Harvard doing more good for society? Which does sound a bit whiny, I would think, especially to an Auckland Kid. The takeaway for me, was that there should be more Auckland Kids at Harvard, and that OP here is more of an Auckland Kid. He's saying there is little to complain about if this is what you came for, and that it should have been. On the other hand, the author of the article presents valid criticism about Harvard Kids and Harvard, but appears also to be closer to the Harvard Kid than the Auckland Kids she seems to admire. Sometimes it takes one to know the others and where you are at. But at least there are some Auckland Kids in the Ivy Leagues. And I would bet you there are some Harvard Kids in Auckland too that never made it to Harvard.
- senkora 6y ago
  I think Harvard kid vs Auckland kid is a false dichotomy. The article makes the argument that there is no difference before college. Harvard takes in kids who would have been Auckland kids and changes them into something else, and that's a problem. Anecdotally, I've seen similar at the top private school that I went to. I had to give up on idealistic things I did in high school, and would have otherwise continued doing in college, because of the workload I experienced at school.

doonesbury 6y ago

Gotta like a guy who's present, working, driven, and competent. That'll deal with the first 65% of the issues (security eg. housing, food, decent education for kids etc). But that last 35% is very different kind of tough and it does not succumb to "work harder bark louder." For an interesting example in film consider [0] with HG Wells and P. Newman. Ultimately the son is accepted by the father, but at what cost? Balance is ... the toughest master of all. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amazon.com/LONG-HOT-SUMMER-TWILIGHT-TIME/dp/B0759WMJ53&ved=2ahUKEwjB9_mItPrqAhXegXIEHXnJAIIQFjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0ZpXkHO5liBTkok1SWRD_A&cshid=1596298721794 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...