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I’m torn. On one hand, we’ve seen how TikTok has been used by the CCP to extend the reach of its censorship, oppression, and surveillance. On the other hand, I

I’m torn. On one hand, we’ve seen how TikTok has been used by the CCP to extend the reach of its censorship, oppression, and surveillance. On the other hand, I’m not sure if the government should be deciding what software we’re allowed to have.

busymom0 6y ago
I think this is a good measure to even the playing field. Thousands of companies are blocked in China. So why not do the same?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tchaffee 6y ago
  Because we live in a relatively free country where the government doesn't choose what software we buy or use.
  - busymom0 6y ago
    When it comes to national security, similar to Huawei, this can all be done.
    - zerowangtwo 6y ago
      But should it?
    - billfruit 6y ago
      Such naivety on display here, I am alarmed for HN. National security isn't blanket grounds for doing anything. There are limits to president's and executives and even legislatures authority. Arbitrarily nothing can be done in our system. Unless US government probably demonstrates to the public that this measure is required, such a ban cannot be condoned.
    - Udik 6y ago
      They can do just anything, once they convinced you it's "because national security". And it seems that people are very easily convinced.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    This is sort of similar to tarrifs no? The government selectively (through lobbyists and deals) picks which types of things are taxed (sometimes to unprofitability). Other things are banned entirely. Not saying Kinder Eggs would be missed as much as Tik Tok, but this is historically something the government does.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - tchaffee 6y ago
      How do you plan on taxing something that is free?
      - eru 6y ago
        What's the problem with that? Obviously, an ad volarem tax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_valorem_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_valorem_tax) that is a tax that is proportional to the market value of a transaction like VAT wouldn't do anything. But there are other kinds of taxes. Eg fuel taxes in many countries are usually per litre, not per dollar of petrol. See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Tax_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Tax_rates Carbon taxes proposals are also usually imagined to apply per kg of carbon emitted. Exactly because there's no prior price of carbon emissions.
    - zepearl 6y ago
      I think that you're still one level more abstract than what is happening here. Tariffs are set for classes/types of goods/materials/etc... and Kinder Eggs were banned because they didn't comply to a regulation (small dangerous foreign objects contained in the product - maybe other similar products had to be banned as well but those ones didn't reach the headlines). In this case the decision applies to a very specific company/product and that decision is not based on a rule/regulation/etc..., I think => on one hand it doesn't have any impact on other similar companies/products, on the other hand it scares me that a single person is able to enforce on-the-fly these kind of decisions.
    - eru 6y ago
- dh5 6y ago
  I'd be 100% against it if this were any app besides one created in China. With all the spyware and protectionist policies there I don't mind so much the ban of Tiktok.
- freedomgone70 6y ago
  Because if I wanted to live in China I would move there? It’s a social platform and I KNOW why other country’s try to control social networks but I wasn’t expecting us to stoop that low for control. They want to talk about fake news but limit us from speaking to each other with something they can’t control. A lot of protestors use it and it was directly used to troll trump by Americans , it’s a conflict of interest. It’s ok for Facebook to sell our data to another country or allow fake ads to manipulate the elderly with conspiracy theories but tiktok is where they draw the line? Redic.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Another account created in the last 45 minutes. There seem to be a lot of them on this thread. 50 cent army?
- t1kt0kaway 6y ago
  Because I (a citizen) might want to access the information provided by this service. I (an individual) would be happy to see TikTok banned, along with Twitter/Facebook/Instagram/etc, because I see them as vain wastes of time with a sinister twist. But I've also met teenagers, and even been one! So I can guess how they might respond to a government-imposed ban on a new and interesting vice. And I (a citizen) am deeply suspicious of being told that I must not know something. It smells like corruption and tyranny. The belief that knowledge should be free is tattooed on my soul (and my skin). Tit-for-tat only works in the absence of moral imperatives.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Given your username and how recently your account was created, I can't help but be a bit wary. Not that I disagree with what you've written in principle.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      Maybe they were just afraid to post under their real name because they'd be attacked by jingoistic, hypocritical Americans who think censorship and anti-free-market practices are fine if the US does it but evil if another country does.
  - jasonlfunk 6y ago
    But it isn’t about you not knowing something, it’s about the Chinese government knowing things through TikTok.
- supergirl 6y ago
  why not go live in china if that's the kind of freedom you want
Cyclone_ 6y ago
I don't think it's being banned due to CCP censorship, it's more a fear the CCP may be using it to spy.
- surround 6y ago
  Right, but TikTok is being used for censorship.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    Right, so the solution to fix censorship of some content on a platform... is to censor all content on the platform by banning it completely?
dimitrios1 6y ago
They decided what encryption software we were allowed to have for the longest time. Up until recently, it was illegal to carry a copy of Schneier's Applied Cryptography on an international flight.
burtonator 6y ago
One option would be to pass a blanket law that doesn't just impact TikTok but US players too and then ban ALL offending apps. This is only about hurting China and TikTok and NOT improving safety of US users. If the US cared it would just change legislation to require rights be protected for social media companies - but that would impact Facebook so that's not going to happen.
- summitsummit 6y ago
  cant help but think facebook might be behind this push to ban tiktok, given how they're already created a rip-off clone of the service perfectly coincidentally in time with when tiktok's supposed to be banned

busymom0 6y ago

I think this is a good measure to even the playing field. Thousands of companies are blocked in China. So why not do the same?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tchaffee 6y ago
Because we live in a relatively free country where the government doesn't choose what software we buy or use.
- busymom0 6y ago
  When it comes to national security, similar to Huawei, this can all be done.
  - zerowangtwo 6y ago
    But should it?
  - billfruit 6y ago
    Such naivety on display here, I am alarmed for HN. National security isn't blanket grounds for doing anything. There are limits to president's and executives and even legislatures authority. Arbitrarily nothing can be done in our system. Unless US government probably demonstrates to the public that this measure is required, such a ban cannot be condoned.
  - Udik 6y ago
    They can do just anything, once they convinced you it's "because national security". And it seems that people are very easily convinced.
- chillacy 6y ago
  This is sort of similar to tarrifs no? The government selectively (through lobbyists and deals) picks which types of things are taxed (sometimes to unprofitability). Other things are banned entirely. Not saying Kinder Eggs would be missed as much as Tik Tok, but this is historically something the government does.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - tchaffee 6y ago
    How do you plan on taxing something that is free?
    - eru 6y ago
      What's the problem with that? Obviously, an ad volarem tax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_valorem_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_valorem_tax) that is a tax that is proportional to the market value of a transaction like VAT wouldn't do anything. But there are other kinds of taxes. Eg fuel taxes in many countries are usually per litre, not per dollar of petrol. See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Tax_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Tax_rates Carbon taxes proposals are also usually imagined to apply per kg of carbon emitted. Exactly because there's no prior price of carbon emissions.
  - zepearl 6y ago
    I think that you're still one level more abstract than what is happening here. Tariffs are set for classes/types of goods/materials/etc... and Kinder Eggs were banned because they didn't comply to a regulation (small dangerous foreign objects contained in the product - maybe other similar products had to be banned as well but those ones didn't reach the headlines). In this case the decision applies to a very specific company/product and that decision is not based on a rule/regulation/etc..., I think => on one hand it doesn't have any impact on other similar companies/products, on the other hand it scares me that a single person is able to enforce on-the-fly these kind of decisions.
  - eru 6y ago
dh5 6y ago
I'd be 100% against it if this were any app besides one created in China. With all the spyware and protectionist policies there I don't mind so much the ban of Tiktok.
freedomgone70 6y ago
Because if I wanted to live in China I would move there? It’s a social platform and I KNOW why other country’s try to control social networks but I wasn’t expecting us to stoop that low for control. They want to talk about fake news but limit us from speaking to each other with something they can’t control. A lot of protestors use it and it was directly used to troll trump by Americans , it’s a conflict of interest. It’s ok for Facebook to sell our data to another country or allow fake ads to manipulate the elderly with conspiracy theories but tiktok is where they draw the line? Redic.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Another account created in the last 45 minutes. There seem to be a lot of them on this thread. 50 cent army?
t1kt0kaway 6y ago
Because I (a citizen) might want to access the information provided by this service. I (an individual) would be happy to see TikTok banned, along with Twitter/Facebook/Instagram/etc, because I see them as vain wastes of time with a sinister twist. But I've also met teenagers, and even been one! So I can guess how they might respond to a government-imposed ban on a new and interesting vice. And I (a citizen) am deeply suspicious of being told that I must not know something. It smells like corruption and tyranny. The belief that knowledge should be free is tattooed on my soul (and my skin). Tit-for-tat only works in the absence of moral imperatives.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Given your username and how recently your account was created, I can't help but be a bit wary. Not that I disagree with what you've written in principle.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    Maybe they were just afraid to post under their real name because they'd be attacked by jingoistic, hypocritical Americans who think censorship and anti-free-market practices are fine if the US does it but evil if another country does.
- jasonlfunk 6y ago
  But it isn’t about you not knowing something, it’s about the Chinese government knowing things through TikTok.
supergirl 6y ago
why not go live in china if that's the kind of freedom you want

Cyclone_ 6y ago

I don't think it's being banned due to CCP censorship, it's more a fear the CCP may be using it to spy.

surround 6y ago
Right, but TikTok is being used for censorship.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Right, so the solution to fix censorship of some content on a platform... is to censor all content on the platform by banning it completely?

dimitrios1 6y ago

They decided what encryption software we were allowed to have for the longest time. Up until recently, it was illegal to carry a copy of Schneier's Applied Cryptography on an international flight.

burtonator 6y ago

One option would be to pass a blanket law that doesn't just impact TikTok but US players too and then ban ALL offending apps. This is only about hurting China and TikTok and NOT improving safety of US users. If the US cared it would just change legislation to require rights be protected for social media companies - but that would impact Facebook so that's not going to happen.

summitsummit 6y ago
cant help but think facebook might be behind this push to ban tiktok, given how they're already created a rip-off clone of the service perfectly coincidentally in time with when tiktok's supposed to be banned